Need help doing my Homework

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by KRob, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. KRob

    KRob Well-Known Member

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    I am looking at getting a new rifle. I am trying to do the homework to discover which caliber is better for my needs and I was curious if any of you new a good reliable reference to compare rounds preferably over the net.
    I know that a lot of it is person preference but I will ask you folks too. I am looking for a round to use for deer and elk hunting and maybe bigger. I would think that I would be shooting out to about 500yds. I was looking mainly at 30-06 since it’s such a common round but I am up to suggestions.
    Thank you
     
  2. 3sixbits

    3sixbits Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I am looking at getting a new rifle. I am trying to do the homework to discover which caliber is better for my needs and I was curious if any of you new a good reliable reference to compare rounds preferably over the net.
    I know that a lot of it is person preference but I will ask you folks too. I am looking for a round to use for deer and elk hunting and maybe bigger. I would think that I would be shooting out to about 500yds. I was looking mainly at 30-06 since it’s such a common round but I am up to suggestions.
    Thank you

    [/ QUOTE ] I don't see how you could help but to be well served by the 30-06 ctg. Yeah a lot of folks will tell you all about something better. This ctg. has stood the test of time because it works so well. I know it's still one of my all time favorites. Lots of great components for reloading, lots of good tools for loading and some vary good factory ammo if you don't load. It is always my first go to for most hunting! I think you would be happy with the 30-06 as a good first choice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     

  3. ElwoodB

    ElwoodB Well-Known Member

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    If you are talking deer and elk, then the good old .308 might be the better choice accuracy-wise. Here is a very good article from www.snipercountry.com on that topic. Hopt it helps you make your mind:

    Accuracy Facts
    .308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield

    By Bart Bobbitt

    Seems to me that any time there's more metal contacting the bullet, the greater [the] chance that more variables come into play. Besides, folks who shoot highpower rifles the most accurate[ly] have very little case neck tension on the bullet anyway.

    It's really easier to have uniform case neck tension by having it light in the first place; neck length doesn't come into play when this is how it's done. And ammo that's been handloaded [which is] then let set for several weeks or months will have a greater release force needed with long necks because of dissimilar materials bonding between bullet jacket and case neck/fouling. There's more area to bond when longer necks are used.

    All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.

    In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.

    At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.

    Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.

    At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.

    Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.

    Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62.

    There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth.

    * Note:

    Mr. Bobbitt did not submit this article to Sniper Country, but rather to the rec.guns newsgroup on February 7, 1997. He has authored many postings to rec.guns, and is highly qualified to comment on a variety of shooting-related topics. Among his many distinctions within the shooting community, he once fired a 20-shot, 3.325" group at 800 yards! (Refer to the advertisement for Krieger Barrels in the May, 1997, issue of Precision Shooting magazine.) Mr. Bobbitt's other postings to rec.guns can be found by doing an author's profile on his name via the Deja News service. This rec.guns posting was acquired via Deja News (see the Deja News policy on materials posted to newsgroups).
     
  4. bucknutz

    bucknutz Well-Known Member

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    interesting and good info.what about twist rate differences .308-1-12 .30-06 1-10 and newer bullets now.i'll admit being a .30-06 fan,in fact its going to be my first custom job by kirby,i just had to take it a step farther to .30-06 ackley improved with 1-11 tw /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and i could have chose any calibre /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  5. 3sixbits

    3sixbits Well-Known Member

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    I was a junior high power shooter when all this was going on that you refer to in the .308 V 30-06 days and shot against the 30-06 with my state issued 7.62mm National match M-14. I well remember the composite target issued by the makers of the Match ammo in 1967. Lake City made both the 7.62mm and the 30-06. I well remember the transition from the 5V to the metric target. What Mr. Bobbit has to say is correct also. Following this argument to it logical conclusion the .308 should not be considered either in favor of the 5.56mm ctg. and this should be your choice for a deer ctg. As the 5.56mm has supplanted the 7.62mm ctg. Then using this same logic with it the short V. long ctg., we should look at the PPC over the 5.56mm NATO ctg. Anybody that has been around high power shooting for anytime will recall taking the issue 7.62mm NM ammo and seating the bullets deeper to break the bond between the sealant on the bullets and the inside of the necks, What Mr. Bobbet refers to in his article is cold welding, this did not occur as the sealant was between the dissimilar metals ie. the bullet jacket and the ctg. case neck. As explained in the article in the PS. magazine in the mid 90's. This article explains vary well the cold welding that occurs in ammo. I know vary well that the ability to kill paper and the ability to kill animals for some of us is the same. But for the few that don't see themselves in this light let me explain. A comparison between two different forms of competitive shooting will perhaps help for those of us that don't understand the difference. Bench rest and metallic silhouette are sports that have vary large followings. I do not believe that to many shooters doubt the dominance of the PPC ctg. in bench rest, shooters have tried and failed for nearly 3 decades have tried to beat this ctg. with little success. It by the way supplanted the triple deuce (.222 REM). It's safe to say it's accuracy goes pretty much unchallenged. Let us step next door to the metallic boys and look for the PPC. ctg. What you say no one is shooting the worlds acclaimed most accurate ctg. ? Whats wrong with theses people you might ask? Well there targets are not made of paper, they have a requirement to knock over the targets they shoot at. The PPC does not really fill the bill here, so we leave behind this much more accurate ctg. in favor of other ctgs. with more push. This could go on for days, I hope that some have begun to see a pattern here! Will the .308WIN kill deer? Who said it would not? Is the better ability to punch holes in paper of the .308WIN more important to the hunter than say this ctgs. famous inability to keep it's veloicty up with heavy weight bullets, at extended ranges? Perhaps the 30-06 still has a role in this world for the few of us that have rifles for something other than blowing holes through paper! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  6. Pete Lincoln

    Pete Lincoln Well-Known Member

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    Depends what game you want to go after. If you want to go after larger game like Elk then with the 06 you have an advantage in pushing heavier bullets a bit faster. Ive been up and down the magnum road and everywhere in between and have still settled on a 30-06 for my long range deer work, why, because it works, i use hornady light mag ammo and get almost 300wm velocity(almost) , but i aint saying the 308 won't work. you get a good rifle built by a reputable smith and feed it decent ammo, learn to use it well,you won't go far wrong with either caliber. I like 1 -10 twist in both calibers.
    Pete
     
  7. 3sixbits

    3sixbits Well-Known Member

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    Deer Size, heard the term once or twice before? I wonder about the people that use the term. Does that mean the southwest's Coues white tail the Roosevelt elk the Yukon's moose, the blacktail or the mule deer, the eastern white tail from 60pds to a 1,000 pds. what does it mean. Is there any that have not been taken with a .22lr.? And should I knowing that, use a lite weight bullet for all. I use one bullet only in the 30-06 and that is the 180 gr. Why because it works for all the deer size game. I use only the 270grain in my .375H&H's why, because it works on everything I might have or want to shoot and the drop is the same for any of the yardage I will see game at. KISS, ever heard the term keep it simple stupid? I pick the twist for the bullet length I will use, I shoot a 1 in 12 for the 30-06 as the length and velocity indicates by the Greenhill formula. I have found that the 180 grain bullets I prefer do not do well for the .308WIN at the ranges I have killed deer size game. That is why I don't use the .308WIN that is not saying it won't work, hey we know people kill deer size game with the .22lr! But it's not my go to first choice.
     
  8. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    ElwoodB quotes Bart Simpson: [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="red"> the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think the .308 has a slight inherent accuracy potential over the '06, but much of the quoted data is more due to the well established BR heard mentality.

    3sixbits writes:
    [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="red"> 06 -&gt; .308 -&gt; 5.56 -&gt; PPC : Silhouette shooters don't use the PPC </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    All I can say <font color="purple"> <u> Kick Ass </u> </font>
    That's the best retort I've read all month.

    For Montana elk sized elk, the '06 is a proven killer. No one bothered to ask robins his budget. My dad bought me (and my brother) bran new model 670 Win '06's (in 1978) for $100 each. They aren't that much more now.
    On a budget, get a used one, shoot/reload often and save a few bucks for a new tube/trigger job. Reloading dies are dirt cheap on eBay.
    I like my RUMS &amp; WinMag, but there will always be an '06 at my cabin.
     
  9. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    As much as I hate to interrupt the 30-06athon, you might consider the 280Remington, especially if you reload.
    Its got the shoulder moved a bit further forward than the 30-06, and gets essentially the same velocity with the same weight bullets, but those bullets will almost always have higher ballistic coefficents (in this case yielding less wind drift, and flatter trajectory)and will have higher Sectional Density (improving penetration for bullets with like construction). If you are buying an off the shelf rifle, the 280 would be a great choice. Even better would be to have your gunsmith ream it out to 280Ackley after you buy it. You can use that same brass, and same factory loads, and on reloading you will gain about 100-150fps.

    A 280Ackley throwing 140grAccubonds for little"deer" and 160s for big "deer" would make a sweet shooting deer rifle that would let you get out there a long way. Lots of good 7mm match bullets that this combo would do well with for those really long shots when you are ready for them.
     
  10. Pete Lincoln

    Pete Lincoln Well-Known Member

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    Deersized game refers to an average white tail and smaller ( or a Red Stag) .. Mulies in thier bigger range areas warrant more thought. IMHO.
    Pete
     
  11. KRob

    KRob Well-Known Member

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    Sorry that it has taken me this long to get back to you all and thanks for helping me.
    Deersize my fault.. white tail and then also good size elk would be the main use for the rifle.
    I've always leaned alittle towards the 06 since it is proven, but i am up for any other suggestion.
    A round that a friend suggested to me was the 300 win or win mag. How do they shoot?
    I dont hand load yet pretty tight buget, however i will probably put down $500 for the new rifle. My main rifle right know is a accu trigger equiped savage and i have had real good luck with it. However i have also been looking at a remingtons.
    Do any of you know where i could find a chart or something with good data that i could compare catriges to another?
    Thanks