Need 22-284 Help Before I Find Out If This Gun Will Float

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Larry Morris, Mar 3, 2005.

  1. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    My wife wants to know - why does this long range forum come up when I start the computer?
    Answer: I don't know.
    I hope she doesn't find the options button under tools.

    OK. I've been following the 22-243 AI Thread and decided to do the unmanly thing and ask for help.

    Here's the specs.
    Remington 700 SA - BDL Walnut - Pillar and steel bedded - Trued - Lapped ---- All done by yours truly. No, get those looks off your faces - I did it just like Fiftydriver does it. Geez.
    Leupold 8.5x25x40 - I have made a test bar for the scope but haven't checked it ... YET. But Will before Leupold gets to see it.
    Barrel: 27" Lilja 1:8 3 groove Varmint Countour with a muzzle brake (by ME). Yes, it's on straight.
    Trigger is set at 20.2 oz.
    Shooting off of custom front rest and bunny ear rear bag.
    Limbsaver recoil pad (as if I needed it).
    Anyway, breaking in the barrel: done the ladder test, started at 49 gr. R22 and went up to 53.5 gr.
    50.0 gr. and 53.0 gr. showed promise. 53.5 gr. had sticky, hard to lift bolt.
    Did the shoot one, clean, shoot one, clean,(you know the routine) for 15 rounds.

    Shot some 53.0 gr. R22 through chronograph at 3825 fps avg.
    Groups were terrible - 1.25" - so I decided to go back to the 50.0 gr. of Reloader 22.

    Shot yesterday with 50.0 gr. R22
    Will try to post pic.

    [​IMG]

    If picture shows up I was shooting at the dot and didn't make any adjustments.

    All questions or comments welcome.
    I have three 6x284's (two with Hart's and one with a Shilen)but I thought that I need this 22-284........

    Larry
     

  2. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    I know what 90 percent of your problem might be. The 75 a max bullet is great at low speeds under 3300 fps. when you shart driving thin jacked bullets that fast bad things happen they can blow up shoot terribly and make your barrel fowl. I had a 22-250 ackley that I thought shot great with nosler J4 jackets at 3500 FPS one hole groups , the only problem is the first 2 bullets hit were I aimed, and the others got dusted. I would try sierra's if you have some laying around. If not grive richard a call at wild cat bullets he sould have some 80's in stock, they are supposed to be tough as nials and thats what is needed in 22-284. I would also some IMR 7828 with the 80's. Richard also is making some 85 and 90 grain 224 pretty soon. Can't wait to try some. Hope I can help.
     

  3. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    Not to impose anything, but are you sure you were getting 3825? What kind of chrono are you using and how far from the muzzle is it? Cloudy day or sunny?

    My .22-.284 had a 29" barrel and it ruined primer pockets at anything over 3500. I could push it to 3650 but accuracy was non-existent. I was shooting 80 Bergers with 50 to 52 grains of RL 25 depending upon the lot in a Norma case. It was also a tight neck.
    Anyway, after about 950 rounds, it started blowing up Bergers so I switched to 80 grain Sierra MK's. They lasted about another 60 rounds until they blew up. Game over. Went to the 6.5-.284 and have never looked back!
     
  4. 308 nate

    308 nate Well-Known Member

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    Gator,
    I'm sorry to hear about your frustrations.
    That's got to be about the most irritating thing in the world.

    question 1-who did your chambering,threading and crowning?

    question 2- how much of the muzzle end of the barrel was cut off before it was crowned? Was a piloted crowning tool used?

    question 3- what kind of reamer was used?
    was it a piloted reamer so that the pilot could be matched perfectly to the bore?
    I have seen crooked chambers that would only group around an inch with the best load.

    question 4- Is the barrel bedded in front of the recoil lug?
    if it is, I would recommend removing the bedding in front of the recoil lug, not that this would cause the problem but is unnecessary for that barrel length and when the epoxy pushes into the barrel chanel, if there is not a perfect cut off in the epoxy to barrel contact it could cause weird barrel vibrations (this is just my therory on this and is not proven fact).

    question 5- when the muzzle brake was installed before threading was the barrel spinning true to the axis of the bore or spinning true to the outside of the barrel?

    question 6- how extensive are your reloads? are you still using virgin brass? Or are you neck sizing once fired in your chamber, brass?

    question 7- is your barrel still heavily fouling?

    question 8- before chambering was your barrel spinning true to the axis of the bore or to the outside of the barrel?

    question 9- was a true floating pilot reamer holder used to hold the reamer? a lot of reamer holders only allow for horizontal and vertical alignment but the one I used is called the bald eagle holder made by PTG and it floats horizontal,vertical and angular so the reamer can follow the bore perfectly.
    308nate

    p.s have you checked your bedding by putting a mag base dial indicator on your barrel in front of the stock and have the indicator touch the end of the stock then loosen your front action screw and watch the dial indicator then do the same with the rear action screw. If you're getting more than .003 movement than you might consider rebedding.
     
  5. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    Reed,
    I talked to Richard over two weeks ago and he has some 80 gr. on the way - you know how the mail is.
    I don’t think the 75 gr. Amax is blowing up, all are making it to the target and by the looks of the targets they aren’t over or under stabilized.
    I purchased a lb. Of Hodgdon Retumbo (no one here in the sticks had any H1000, H870 or Reloader 22) and am going to play with that until Richards bullets arrive.
    I don’t think I have the twist rate for anything heavier.?
    I have read of other members getting velocities in the 3600-3800 fps range with good results.

    Goodgrouper,
    Chronograph is a Chrony Beta Model and I have checked it about a year ago with a 35P but the on the day I was testing the 22-284 it was cloudy so who knows. It might be time to recheck. It ran about 18 fps high avg. than the 35P.
    I was hoping to get around 1800 to 2000 rounds out of this barrel even if I have to rechamber a couple of times.
    I shoot moly coated bullets in all my 6x284’s so I may go ahead and moly these 75 grainers and see what happens.
    I get pretty consistent results at 1000 to 1100 yards from my 6x284’s with 105 gr. Amax’s.

    308 nate,
    I do all the work on my rifles and have been for 5 years. I got tired of paying and waiting 2 months for some small machining job to be done. There are NOT any gunsmiths or even a machinist that will attempt to do a chamber job within 45 miles of where I live. I and everyone else were taking everything to Oklahoma City or Lawton, Okla.

    I cut barrel length ½” shorter than Lilja’s cut/lapping mark. Rifling good.
    I use pins on the muzzle end, dial indicated in to .0001” then cut at 11 deg. And check for any burrs with loupe and Q-Tip.
    Muzzle brake was installed and hole bored to final dia. while barrel was rotating true to axis -- .020 over bullet dia.

    I only use indicator rods when I am re-chambering, otherwise I use a + or – gage pin on new barrels. If indicator shows that I can move pin any I heat the pin with heat gun a little and it will show “0” movement, but you do have to wait for it to cool before removing. Anything with over .0002” run-out is unacceptable in my book.
    I used a rented live-pilot reamer from Shawnee on the rifle because I didn’t know if this caliber was going to work out or not. I normally buy my reamers from Dave at PPG. I mic all reamers before chambering and this one was good and I used a perfect fitting pilot. Chamber is excellent – absolutely no run out in chamber or on case. Made a floating reamer holder from a picture that Mike Bryant sent me – works great.

    Barrel is not bedded in front of the recoil lug.
    The action has aluminum pillars (before bedding) and they are contoured to the same diameter as the action. No stress in other words. I didn’t take any pictures of it before I put it back in the stock but it looks like textbook bedding.

    After breaking in barrel and fireforming brass (Lapua), brass is neck sized only with .001” squeeze on bullet (Redding Bushing die and Competition Bullet Seater) and I use a Bersin Bullet concentricity tool and/or Sinclair Concentricity Tool. After 15 rounds of naked bullets the barrel cleans up with three patches and when I do use Sweets there is only a trace of copper fowling.

    After posting my question yesterday I talked to a shooting friend and he thinks that the scope (Leupold) may be malfunctioning. So I clamped the rifle in a vise and put my trusty Leupold bore-sighter on and ran the elevation and windage both ways. It came back to the same zero. I also have the windage and elevation in the middle of its adjustments so the inner tube is not near the outer tube. I took a rifle out of the vise and bounced it on the concrete floor (with the recoil pad down) pretty hard then back to the vise. Zero had not changed.
    I don’t know if this eliminates the scope.

    I am going to shoot another group with 50.0 gr. R22 today – if weather permits and then load up some Retumbo (don’t know where to start) and chronograph both. I don’t rule out the possibility that the chronograph is giving false numbers either.

    I read the thread on the 22-243 AI and “Varmint Hunter” just had to post the picture of that 600 yard group – BUT you still missed the dime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    That's some fine shooting and if this thing doesn't pan out I will rechamber to 22-243 AI or sell the barrel.

    I appreciate everyone’s suggestions and questions.
    I’m trying to give you enough info that maybe you will see something I’m not.

    I’m not giving up yet!
     
  6. Aussie

    Aussie Well-Known Member

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  7. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    The truth be told

    Gator,

    [ QUOTE ]
    I read the thread on the 22-243 AI and “Varmint Hunter” just had to post the picture of that 600 yard group – BUT you still missed the dime.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually, I wasn't shooting at the dime, I was aiming at an orange dot that was 6" to the left. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The wind was kind enough to blow the bullets (uniformly) to the dime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    VH
     
  8. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Are your shots walking vertically or are they just random in that pattern? Next target number them and shoot at least 10 rds to see if a pattern develops
     
  9. Larry Morris

    Larry Morris Active Member

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    Nov 20, 2001
    Quick Update:
    I haven't given up YET!
    Reed, you were right. Bullets are coming apart if I load over 48.0 gr. R22 (Non-Moly coated) - velocity unknown. I'm not able to chronograh anything late in the evening when winds are calm. Pic is at higher load.
    I'm not sure if the 1:8 twist will stabalize anthing over 80 ????
    Goodgrouper, you were right about the primer pockets.
    They got loose after 6 reloads - virgin Lapua Brass.

    I'm not giving up until I wear it out.
    Talked to Dan Lilja and he thinks that I should drop down to the 69 gr. Sierra.
    I got the 80 gr. (they look good) Wildcat Bullets from Richard Graves this morning and have some loaded at 49.5, 50.0 and 50.5 Reloader 22.
    Will shoot them this evening if the wind (it never blows in Oklahoma) dies down before the sun goes down.
    I want to moly coat them but I don't think that I will be giving them a fair chance if I do.
    Pics of targets from last two evenings.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and Aussie, good read but it makes my head hurt when I read stuff like that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Thanks for all the suggestions and I will post results on the Wildcat Bullets just in case anyone else wants to shoot this round.

    Note: The second pic has one bullet that made it to the target and one bullet that came apart, made two holes and it was shot at 20 yards - others would not reach 100 yard target.

    Larry
     
  10. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Goodgrouper, you were right about the primer pockets.
    They got loose after 6 reloads - virgin Lapua Brass.


    [/ QUOTE ]


    Yeah, and if you are loosening pockets on rock hard Lapua brass, you know there is <font color="red"> WAY </font> too much pressure!
     
  11. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    I have blown up quite a few bullets in fast twist .224's. It seemed like that was part of your problem. IT seems that when the barrel is cool the first 2or 3 shots will shoot good and go where you want them too, and after that they go and do what ever they want. I blew up a few hundred nosler J4 80 grain bullets prarie dog hunting. I was fireforming them in a 22-250 ACK. The velcioty was only around 3150. I am having problems in my 8 twist 22-243 imp with the 80 sierra's. They shoot ok, but not good. They are starting to fowl my barrel around 3600. And they don't shoot around 3500.. I am waiting for the wildcat bullets in 85 and 90 grain to test. I also heard from fred at sharp shooter suppply that the 90 gr sierra was stablizing in some 8 twist barrels. I would try the wildcat bullets up to 90 gr and try the new 90 sierra. You might have enough speed to shoot the sierra. I think this gun will shoot, you just need the bullet to do it. Fast twist 224 are great but we are just waiting for bullet technology to catch up.. Hopefully richards bullets pan out. IF not I hope nosler would come out with some accubond 80 and 90 grrain .224 bullets.. I almost forget you have one more bullet option the swift scricco. It is 75 grains and is a bonded ballistic tip. IF you can blow up a bonded bullet you will be my hero. Good shooting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  12. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Gator, I agree with Reed, that the 75 Amax bullet could be a major part of your problems, and the post by 308 Nate gave you an excellent list of other things to check.

    In 1972, I built up a 22/284 on a Sako L579 Action, and Ackley 33 inch CM barrel. The case neck was shortened .020 on my gunsmiths suggestion, and fireformed cases had a case capacity of about 63.5 grains, which is almost identical capacity to the .224 Clark (cap. 63.8) which I built up in 1988.

    The initial groups in my 22/284 were good, but then I encountered problems with erratic pressures and lack of accuracy, that I never resolved prior to the rifle being stolen some 10 years later.

    The one of the two major problems was excessive barrel fouling from the bullets that were coming apart in the barrel and in flight. This was evidenced by comet tails on the target, and in some extreme cases by keyholes, and the copper streaks on the lands at the muzzle. From the evidence submitted by you, I think that could also be one contributing cause to your inaccuracy.

    Switching to the 80 grain Sierra HPBT may assist. Many other users of the 22/284, 22/6mm AI, 224 Clark, etc have reported that it is the only bullet in that weight range that they found would hold together at velocities of 3,600 fps or more. I believe that Richard Graves Wildcat 80 grain ULD bullets will also hold together, as in my discussions with him, he is well aware of the problem, and has designed his bullets to overcome this. (I also have his 80 and 85 ULD's in transit to me at the moment).

    Powders such Reloader 25, H1000, Vihtavouri N170, Ramshot Magnum, which are all similar in burning rate, should give about 95 - 100% loading density a maximum pressure with the 80 grain bullet, and in my opinion these powders are better suited than slightly faster burning Reloader 22. Depending on your case capacity, you may just fit enougth Hodgdon Retumbo in to make it competitive.

    I am not sure how you have throated the barrel, but I believe that you will find (like I), that the Rem 700 Short action with its magazine length of 2.800 inches, will prove too short to allow the proper feeding of cases from the magazine, if you chase the lands as throat erosion occurs.
    Luckily in my .224 Clark, the 69 grain Sierra would still shoot acceptably with about .150 inches of jump to the lands, but this is less likely to happen with the much longer VLD style bullets. My next 224 Clark will be based on the Rem 700 Long Action to overcome this problem.

    The other major problem that I experienced in my 22/284 was that the case necks would not expand reliably, despite being regularly annealed, and caused pressures to spike unpredictably. However, I have not heard others experience this problem with the 22/284, so I believe it was related to those 2 batches of 100 cases (each) that I used. I certainly did not experience similar problems with the .224 Clark, or other cases.

    My personal experiences with the 22/284 and .224 Clark were like chalk and cheese. However, I still believe that the
    22/284 properly set up should work well, providing you use bullets that hold together, and with powders of the correct burning rate for those bullets. Good luck, Brian.
     
  13. apostle

    apostle New Member

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    Lost river ballistic technology makes a 78 grain solid hunting bullet
    that is incredibly accurate out to 1000 yards. It is instant death on
    mule deer out of the 22-284. With the speed you are getting out of your rifle
    it should stabilize, my buddy has a 22-284 with a 30" 1-7 twist and gets fantastic results, so much so that i am about to have one built This bullet is the answer to your problems try it!!!