For those of you neck sizing only belted magnums are you using s type bushing dies or dies with expander mandrel. Thanks in advance for any help and replies.
Neck sizing belted magnums
- Thread starter Doc88
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I prefer using the bushing dies because they reduce the number of sizing's by 50% improving brass life.
When using a expander, the dies size the brass down below the finished size and then the expander sizes it up to the correct dimension.
Nothing wrong with using the expander dies except the excessive sizing of the brass, Reducing brass life and increasing the annealing schedule. (More often).
J E CUSTOM
Thank you very much. That was the answer I was hoping for. Now, any advantage to the Redding Competition neck bushing die vs the standard neck bushing die?
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
At the Redding website they tell if you do not neck turn the brass it is recommended to a bushing at least .002 smaller than the expander diameter.
The Redding type S bushing dies comes with a expander and too many people think it is OK to push the neck irregularities or defects to the inside of the case neck and not use the included expander.
Also at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases using non-bushing full length dies. They also sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 smaller than bullet diameter.
Bottom line Forster will hone the neck of their full length dies to your desired diameter. And using a expander is not the end of the world as many people claim. And Redding includes a expander with their type S dies for anyone who does not neck turn their brass.
Below is a closeup macro photo of a new RCBS expander, and the reason why you should polish the expander. And simply lubing the inside of the case neck eliminates many of the harsh comments about using expanders.
Below a Forster high mounted floating expander and spindle installed on a Redding full length die. This setup greatly reduces neck runout and expander drag and all my RCBS dies have been retro fitted with Forster expander assemblies.
Below on the right a Forster expander and spindle assembly used to replace the RCBS expander on the left.
The Redding type S bushing dies comes with a expander and too many people think it is OK to push the neck irregularities or defects to the inside of the case neck and not use the included expander.
Also at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases using non-bushing full length dies. They also sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 smaller than bullet diameter.
Bottom line Forster will hone the neck of their full length dies to your desired diameter. And using a expander is not the end of the world as many people claim. And Redding includes a expander with their type S dies for anyone who does not neck turn their brass.
Below is a closeup macro photo of a new RCBS expander, and the reason why you should polish the expander. And simply lubing the inside of the case neck eliminates many of the harsh comments about using expanders.
Below a Forster high mounted floating expander and spindle installed on a Redding full length die. This setup greatly reduces neck runout and expander drag and all my RCBS dies have been retro fitted with Forster expander assemblies.
Below on the right a Forster expander and spindle assembly used to replace the RCBS expander on the left.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
The top end dies normally have a sleeve that holds the case in perfect alignment while it is being sized. One other thing, I find that if I turn the necks true (Just enough to clean the up, and make them all the same thickness) before the first firing, the chamber does the best job of making the case concentric.
Then when you use a good set of competition dies the loaded cartridge will be very concentric. I like the bushings in conjunction with a good competition set of dies with the moving sleeve that holds everything concentric. normal dies start sixing the necks before the body of the case comes in contact with the die body, allowing it to size off center.
Once the necks are turned uniformly, bushings can be used to get the exact grip on the bulled that you want.
A rifle is only as accurate as the ammo you feed it.
Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Yes... I size for the 300 WM and the 264 WM, and use bushing dies for both. For the 300 WM, I use the Competition Neck sizer, and for the 264 WM, I use the standard bushing "S" neck sizier - I would use a comp neck sizer for the 264 if the made them.
You don't need and should not use an expander with bushing sizing dies.
If you are using bushings, then using an expander works against you, because no matter what size bushing you use, the expander will make all necks the same size, so the expander negates the use of bushings - so if you want to use an expander, save money and buy a standard neck sizer... it will do the same thing.
(Doesn't BigEdP51 have the most bestest pictures - I steal them all!!
)
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
Yes... I size for the 300 WM and the 264 WM, and use bushing dies for both. For the 300 WM, I use the Competition Neck sizer, and for the 264 WM, I use the standard bushing "S" neck sizier - I would use a comp neck sizer for the 264 if the made them.
You don't need and should not use an expander with bushing sizing dies.
If you are using bushings, then using an expander works against you, because no matter what size bushing you use, the expander will make all necks the same size, so the expander negates the use of bushings - so if you want to use an expander, save money and buy a standard neck sizer... it will do the same thing.
(Doesn't BigEdP51 have the most bestest pictures - I steal them all!!
CatShooter, I prefer to full length resize my cases and you remind me of another "cat".
Saddam Hussein's cat also prefers "neck sizing" but its a dying minority that still neck size only.
P.S. You can't hunt ground hogs if you are sitting at your computer.
Another question is would you recommend neck sizing only for hunting rounds as long as the rounds still chamber well or FL size ?
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
P.S. You can't hunt ground hogs if you are sitting at your computer.
The Woodchucks are inside (at their computers) today - it is 97° in the shade
(((
The Woodchucks are inside (at their computers) today - it is 97° in the shade
Cat, must be nice there, forecasted 117 here on Monday.
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Woodchucks won't move to Arizona cuz of that. Turn on the AC and make some ammo.
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Yes... there is no need to full size unless the cases are hard to chamber.
The ideal fit for a case, either for field shooting or match shooting, is when the bolt handle has some light resistance when it is half way down.
This will keep the case from stretching and prevent head separations, and reduce trimming to almost nothing, or nothing at all.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
+1
We go to all the trouble to have a near perfect chamber, so why would we full length size and have a case that just lays in the bottom of the chamber and misaligns the bullet with the bore.
Full length sizing does have its place in Simi autos to aid in the function of the action, But with a bolt rifle the better the case fits the better the potential accuracy.
Just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
bigedp51
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,022
The vast majority of modern bolt actions have a recessed bolt face and the cartridge does "NOT" lay in the bottom of the chamber
The only rifle I have ever owned that the cartridge did lay in the bottom of the chamber was the British .303 Enfield rifle with its flat nonsupporting bolt face.
Below is from the "Rifleman's Journal" website written by German A. Salazar in response to a question about partial neck sizing using a full length die.
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
"Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."
I belong to the "rat turd in the violin case" club.
The trick to fire forming the British .303 cartridge in the large military Enfield rifles chamber and have the excess head clearance removed and "center" the case in the rear of the chamber was simple.
A small rubber o-ring was slipped over the case to hold the case against the bolt face. And when the rubber o-ring was compressed it flowed around the base of the case into the chamber and centered the case in the rear of the chamber.
Below the o-ring method of fire forming a rimmed case with a unsupported bolt face for my .303 British Enfield rifles.
Bottom line it is a misconception to say any "modern" rifle lets the cartridge "lay" in the bottom of the chamber.
The only rifle I have ever owned that the cartridge did lay in the bottom of the chamber was the British .303 Enfield rifle with its flat nonsupporting bolt face.
Below is from the "Rifleman's Journal" website written by German A. Salazar in response to a question about partial neck sizing using a full length die.
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
"Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."
I belong to the "rat turd in the violin case" club.
The trick to fire forming the British .303 cartridge in the large military Enfield rifles chamber and have the excess head clearance removed and "center" the case in the rear of the chamber was simple.
A small rubber o-ring was slipped over the case to hold the case against the bolt face. And when the rubber o-ring was compressed it flowed around the base of the case into the chamber and centered the case in the rear of the chamber.
Below the o-ring method of fire forming a rimmed case with a unsupported bolt face for my .303 British Enfield rifles.
Bottom line it is a misconception to say any "modern" rifle lets the cartridge "lay" in the bottom of the chamber.
