Melting/deforming Poly tips in flight.

[Mike 338]

When you see just how much damage to the tip occurs by taking apart a cartridge with a kinetic bullet puller or under recoil in a mag box, it's no surprise that testing with good equipment reveals flight irregularities at longer ranges. It should be interesting to see if a theoretically more consistent bullet makes me a better shot.

 

[WildRose]

In the end terminal performance, is what will matter to me.

I "think" we may see some improvement shot to shot, both in accuracy, and results.

While I use tipped bullets mostly, I can see some of the issues are real, but I'm a little skeptical another polymer is the answer. I would prefer a "bronze point", or something like it. I'd also like to see some work done with the other end of the tip. Does the material, or how deeply it sits in the bullet effect terminal performance?

I know that I have enough bullets on the shelf someone else will have to experiment with these.

I appreciate the fact, that in spite of being able to sell their product faster than the can make them, Hornady is taking time to look at the market, and improve their product.

As I mentioned in another post, maybe on another thread Perigrine is using a combination Copper tip driving a brass plunger into the bullet for expansion.

As for what all goes into expansion there's a whole lot of factors.

Yes how deep the plunger is set and how deeply it penetrates is going to be one factor.

Another is the allows used. The Sirocco for example stays together as well as any bullet I've every used but both the lead and the jacket seem to be too soft allowing for the bullet to flatten out ridiculously sometimes causing the bullet to fail to track straight through. I've seen them turn 90deg at times most recently on a wharthog and a big blue wildebeest but I've also seen it on white tails! I've recovered some of them flattened out the size of a silver dollar or even an old .50c piece!

The tapered jackets like Hornady uses start off thinner at the tip and thicken to about the mid point. Hornady's interlock has been my go to bullet for a couple of decades because even though it's not the best long range bullet because of the BC I'd simply never had one fail to expand as it should. I attribute that to their metallurgy being great with both the jacket and the lead core but also their bonding process.

From what I'm seeing of the design of the new ELD X I'm pretty excited because it appears they have used a combination of the interbond's bonding process along with the cannelure of the interlock, and done all of this combined with the VLD shape and the new heat shield tip.

I'm really pumped to see this offering after the let down many of us had with the Nosler ABLR.

 

[WildRose]

To add just a bit. I have some considerable experience from my military days with explosives, namely "shape charges".

If you look at what Hornady is doing with their new HRT's (heat resistant tips) if you look closely that is essentially what they are making with their new tip.

Not only is their a small air bubble in the stem/plunger but there's also a small gap between the base of the plunger and core drilled out at a sharp angle.

Looking at the combination of the two I can't see how these bullets can fail to expand every time.

 

[HARPERC]

.......The Sirocco for example stays together as well as any bullet I've every used but both the lead and the jacket seem to be too soft allowing for the bullet to flatten out ridiculously sometimes causing the bullet to fail to track straight through.......................

When they first came out we shot a bunch into hog meat, and bone unfit for human consumption. Retained weight was great, never could destroy one, but like you've said washer sized expansion limited penetration a bit. I recovered one from a mule deer I shot at 600 yards, it looked just like the ones from point blank. Very consistent, maybe the most consistent I've seen.

 

[WildRose]

When they first came out we shot a bunch into hog meat, and bone unfit for human consumption. Retained weight was great, never could destroy one, but like you've said washer sized expansion limited penetration a bit. I recovered one from a mule deer I shot at 600 yards, it looked just like the ones from point blank. Very consistent, maybe the most consistent I've seen.

I agree. The craziest I've seen was the Blue wildebeest shot with the 180Gr 300wm and a small cull white tailed buck shot with the .260.

I shot a bit low on the deer at 110yds with the 260 Rem. That bullet grazed off of the sternum and shot straight up destroying the heart and both lungs then the spine right between the shoulders. The bullet did not exit and was about 1.75" diameter.

The Wildebeest was shot at around 300yds quartering away from me but with his head turned looking stright at me. I put it dead center in the crease of his neck/shoulder right at the top edge of the bottom 1/3 elevation wise.

I saw the bullet strike perfectly and he flipped up like he was just going to rear up and fll over dead but instead turned and ran about 150yds, crashed, got up, did it again, crashed, got up and crashed again about 70yds later.

Now the guys in the truck who were watching through bino's though I'd hit him high on the shoulder and that we were just screwed since it was nearly dark and they figured he'd run for miles before dying if then.

Well what it turned out was that the bullet hit perfectly but right at the tip of the sternum and somehow managed to then take out the top of the heart and left lung and exit through the left shoulder up high. Crazy!

That was the second shot in a row in which the siroccoII had done things it just never should have and they told me "no more" as in no more game to be shot with that bullet on the trip and I agreed.

 

[BergerBoy]

In the end terminal performance, is what will matter to me.

Yes, but "terminal performance" doesn't get you on or to target....

I agree that terminal performance is huge and I am not the biggest hunter in the world and/or best shooter but I have never seen a bullet not do it's job when it hit it's target. Some do it better than others. I made the mistake of using an SMK when I took my last antelope - went through the heart, almost like a perfect little hole. It ran ~ 25 yards. I did NOT have that problem with my daughter's deer using Nosler BT. It ran 2 yards. Complete destruction- about 4 in. below POI.

I think it has to be close to 50/50 on the importance factor (terminal vs. ballistic) when you long range hunt.
Short(er) range (less than 400 yards)is another matter.
What do you think?

JMO

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[WildRose]

Yes, but "terminal performance" doesn't get you on or to target....

I agree that terminal performance is huge and I am not the biggest hunter in the world and/or best shooter but I have never seen a bullet not do it's job when it hit it's target. Some do it better than others. I made the mistake of using an SMK when I took my last antelope - went through the heart, almost like a perfect little hole. It ran ~ 25 yards. I did NOT have that problem with my daughter's deer using Nosler BT. It ran 2 yards. Complete destruction- about 4 in. below POI.

I think it has to be close to 50/50 on the importance factor (terminal vs. ballistic) when you long range hunt.
Short(er) range (less than 400 yards)is another matter.
What do you think?

JMO

Thanks for all the replies.

I've put enough game in the freezer to fill several semi's over the years out as far ast 1320 yards. It all boils down to putting a bullet in the vitals and having it do fatal damage consistently.

I've had good, bad, great, and terrible results along the way but the one bullet that has never let me down if I put it in the right spot was the Hornady Interbond. Never have I had one fail to expand or blow up but compared to the more advanced geometries available today relatively low BC's.

I'm really hoping that this bullet proves out as well as advertised and if it does it will be the "game changer" the Nosler ALR was supposed to be.

Here's to not being let down again!

 

[HARPERC]

In the end terminal performance, is what will matter to me.

Yes, but "terminal performance" doesn't get you on or to target....

I can't disagree with any of what you said. Starting from scratch all those things are important. Starting from we have accurate bullets with good BC's now, what does the new bullet offer, is why I weighted performance heavier at this time.

There are folks here that will give us good info regarding testing of these parameters, terminal performance is where it generally gets spirited. Most of us don't see enough critters shot, and at best it's a judgement a lot of times.

Checking my shelf against the new products I don't really see a gap these bullets would fill unless there is improved terminal performance.

At any rate-not disrespecting the bullets, or the other requirements a bullet should have, just stating where I'm starting from.

 

[Pdvdh]

I agree that terminal performance is huge and I am not the biggest hunter in the world and/or best shooter but I have never seen a bullet not do it's job when it hit it's target. Some do it better than others.

What do you think?

Because you have never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've experienced it, and so have other members of this Forum. The most fanatical, painstaking preparation can all turn into a chaotic cluster when a bullet doesn't expand, doesn't tumble, and leaves a caliber size hole on both the entry and exit sides of the rib cage.

It irks me to no end, and can lead to scenes I'd not post on YouTube.

The hunters that have had the experience are the ones more apt to prioritize terminal performance first and foremost.

 

[liltank]

This would explain the episode I saw on gunwerks. They had the Hornady crew out testing new bullets. They didn't state what the bullet was that they were using. They were very specific to what distance they shot the game. Some were under 600yds and others were over 600 yards. The bullets looked like they worked like they were supposed too.

 

[BergerBoy]

Because you have never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've experienced it, and so have other members of this Forum. The most fanatical, painstaking preparation can all turn into a chaotic cluster when a bullet doesn't expand, doesn't tumble, and leaves a caliber size hole on both the entry and exit sides of the rib cage.

It irks me to no end, and can lead to scenes I'd not post on YouTube.

The hunters that have had the experience are the ones more apt to prioritize terminal performance first and foremost.

I have hunted/shot over 30 years. Is that not enough "experience " to make a observation or state an opinion? Of course "YOU are one of those hunters with the experience to prioritize terminal performance so please break it down for me because I am still learning. Unless I misunderstood you....
...as I stated I saw it (bad terminal ballistics)with the SMKs.

HARPERC- It NOT the first time someone disagreed with me my friend. The only time I see terminal performance being paramount is with dangerous game, VERY rarely hunted at long range.

 

[Pdvdh]

I have hunted/shot over 30 years. Is that not enough "experience " to make a observation or state an opinion? Of course "YOU are one of those hunters with the experience to prioritize terminal performance so please break it down for me because I am still learning. Unless I misunderstood you....
...as I stated I saw it (bad terminal ballistics)with the SMKs.

HARPERC- It NOT the first time someone disagreed with me my friend. The only time I see terminal performance being paramount is with dangerous game, VERY rarely hunted at long range.

Little sensitive are we? Roll out of the wrong side of the bed this AM?

You can state your observations and opinions as you please, regardless of your 30 years hunting/shooting. And you stated "I have never seen a bullet not do it's job when it hit it's target". How can that be misinterpreted? Would you like to clarify what is it that you meant to say/convey?

I stated "Because you have never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen." You'd think I called your mother a bad name. I'd apologize if there was any cause for it.

I also stated "The hunters that have had the experience are the ones more apt to prioritize terminal performance first and foremost." Let me refine my statement, and see if I can express this in a manner you won't take offense at, without really, really, trying to purposely misinterpret: "The hunters that have had the experience of a bullet not doing its job are the ones more apt to prioritize terminal performance first and foremost." Does that modification tickle you pink? Now can we be friends? Or do you still wanna fight?

Agree / disagree. Right / wrong. Why such the confrontational attitude? How about "Other's have had different experiences with bullets than you?" Or does that ruffle your feathers too - "my disagreeable friend"...

 

[BergerBoy]

Little sensitive are we? Roll out of the wrong side of the bed this AM?

You can state your observations and opinions as you please, regardless of your 30 years hunting/shooting. And you stated "I have never seen a bullet not do it's job when it hit it's target". How can that be misinterpreted? Would you like to clarify what is it that you meant to say/convey?

I stated "Because you have never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen." You'd think I called your mother a bad name. I'd apologize if there was any cause for it.

I also stated "The hunters that have had the experience are the ones more apt to prioritize terminal performance first and foremost." Let me refine my statement, and see if I can express this in a manner you won't take offense at, without really, really, trying to purposely misinterpret: "The hunters that have had the experience of a bullet not doing its job are the ones more apt to prioritize terminal performance first and foremost." Does that modification tickle you pink? Now can we be friends? Or do you still wanna fight?

Agree / disagree. Right / wrong. Why such the confrontational attitude? How about "Other's have had different experiences with bullets than you?" Or does that ruffle your feathers too - "my disagreeable friend"...

My apologies, after re-reading my post I see I was a little ****y this morning.
However, I don't think I was as confrontational as you say....
I appriciate everybody's input.

 

[Steyr Luxus]

What ever happened to the Remington factory loaded Bronze Points? It would seem that these would eliminate the deformation of the tips experienced here. As I recall they were only available in 150 and 180 grain 308 & 30/06 loads.