Lazzeroni Patriot vs. .284 Winchester

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by gunner69, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. gunner69

    gunner69 Well-Known Member

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    Gents,

    I am Mule Deer hunting south of Miles City MT this year. I have two rifles - both consistently sub 1/2 MOA accuracy. Both weigh in just under 10lbs. Which rifle would you bring and why:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4ztnp9xebsvwjz/IMG_1486.jpg

    Option 1: Lazzeroni Patriot Rifle: Defiance, 21.75" Bartlein 1:11, Greybull Scope, Titanium Rings, Jewel, McMillan edge, OPS Break - This rifle has less recoil than my .284 Win. This is shorter rifle easier handling.

    Ballistics: Berger 168 Classic Hunter 3225 fps (powder used is R22 and fairly temp sensitive)

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqx4z7weym78wff/IMG_1488.JPG

    Option 2: .284 Winchester: Defiance, 28" Bartlein 1:9, Swarovski Z6 3-18x50, Near rings, jewell, McMillan edge. This rifle has superior optics over the Greybull (which is also excellent):

    Ballistics: Berger 180vld hunting 2,850 fps (powder used is H4831 and not at all temp sensitive)

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kocinbkgx0g4hc2/IMG_1487.JPG

    Before you answer consider this situation. 190" Mule Deer 640 yards. No way to approach closer without getting busted by his sentries. Consider delivered energy at that distance, and which rifle you would likely make the shot with. The answer that I came to frankly surprised me.
     
  2. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    As much as it pains me, in your case I'd go with the .284. Here's Why:

    I love my Patriot, it was my first "custom" rifle & will always be near & dear to my heart. Why I would not choose it quite frankly, is the 168 Berger.... I just don't get it. A light, highly frangibly bullet @ high velocity (although a good bit slower than it should be) is a recipe for some bad ju-ju (IMHO).

    RL-22 has shown pressure issues with my testing in a 243ackley, so you're right on there. What temp did you work up the load in & will it be similar to the temp you're hunting in? I would not be afraid of 15-20fps difference.

    Just as a discussion piece, I've been shooting the 168TTSX in my Patriot with RL-17... Velocity is, as of my last test, just north of 3400fps, a solid 200fps over your RL-22 combo. With 3 loads on the cases to boot.

    I don't trust the 168Berger on a big muley. Will it work? Probably. Not that same Patriot case with the 190 or 210 Berger is a whole 'nother story. (I have a couple hundred 190's to test- Don't tell Broz :D).

    The 284 is slinging a high BC & just as important, high SD bullet at really good velocity.

    Either will probably kill just fine. For this situation, as much as it pains me to say...

    I vote for the .284.


    t
     

  3. gunner69

    gunner69 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. The 284 Win overtakes the Lazz in energy delivered beyond 600 yards. You are right that is is because of the Berger 168 lower BC regardless of significanlty higher velocity at the muzzle. I have extremely high confidence in the 284 pinpoint delivery at long range as well.

    However, if I move to a Berger 185 Classic Hunter (the largest bullet that will fit in my mag box - 175 VLD shoots extremely well jammed but is to long) at 3050 fps the Lazz once again takes over in down range energy but this will require load development. I'll do this during the winter and take the Lazz on a 2014 Elk hunt for sure.

    Of course I'm splitting hairs in all this but arn't we all and isn't that half the fun.
     
  4. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    Heck, that's ALL the fun :D


    I don't know if the 190s will fit in my mag box or not. If they don't, I will rock it single shot. I used to avoid single shots like a one legged call girl. Having my last rifle built specifically as a single shot has open my mind a little (in reference to the single shot, not the one legger).

    The Patriot is a very accurate cartridge coupled with it's shorter OAL makes it (IMHO) a better fit than the WSM or SAUM. Your setup is handicapped by the 168; what is the BC difference between the 168 & the 185 classic hunter? (I haven't worked with the CH models).


    t
     
  5. barnesuser28

    barnesuser28 Well-Known Member

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    I also vote for the 284, the high BC berger really makes it shine, i plan to test the 195 EOL in mine once they come out (if ever). I am using the 162 amax in mine right now, i am just about done with load development.
     
  6. gunner69

    gunner69 Well-Known Member

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    The 185 CH has a G7 BC of .280 vs the 168 CH .254. The nose on the 185 is slightly shorter too which actually gives me .005" more clearance also. Another benefit is that 185 CH will likely prefer the 1:11 twist rate (closer to stability verses overspin). Sounds like perfect ELK load -which I will try with approx. 67gr. H4350, 71 gr R22, 69gr R19 and 67.5gr R17.
     
  7. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    Hey there little brother. Hope those primers are helping you out. The 195 must be shrouded in pixie dust & unicorn blood because they sure are a mythical beast :cool:


    I don't believe there is going to be much concern for overspin. The 185 may prefer the 1-11 over a 1-10 but I don't know how much difference there will be. I'm a firm believer that extra RPM increases internal ballistic performance.

    PS- your starting load for RL-17 looks high to me. Be careful with that, IIRC i'm @ 66.0 with the 168.

    t
     
  8. barnesuser28

    barnesuser28 Well-Known Member

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    They sure are big brother. :) Hope that powder is helping you out. gun)
     
  9. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could tell you a better story. I intend to use it with some 190 Boogers in my Lazz Patriot... one of these days :D


    ..... or maybe my 6.5 ' Creed.

    t
     
  10. gunner69

    gunner69 Well-Known Member

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    My max load for the 168's was 68.5g of R17. Slightly flat primers but no bolt stick or ejector mark.
     
  11. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    That's still a full grain and a half above the max load in my Patriot. I just looked, 67.0. Of course my load utilized a Barnes which may be the difference. which primer are you using?


    T
     
  12. gunner69

    gunner69 Well-Known Member

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    WLR primer. My testing shows more consistent groups than the F210M's (I know J Lazzeroni is big on the 210's). R17 is a bit lot sensitive too. I'll start at 66.5g to be safe Good suggestion. The 185 is longer and will produce higher pressure.
     
  13. Outlaw6.0

    Outlaw6.0 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, John swears by the 210. I'm suprised he didn't scold me for running 215M's :D


    That's another area that should create higher pressure in my rifle.


    t
     
  14. LazzInc

    LazzInc Well-Known Member

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    with all the testing I have done with the Lazzeroni short-mags, including the 7.82 Patriot, the Fed 210 primer consistently provides the same velocities as when using a fed 215, but with less peak pressure ,,,,,,