Lazzeroni Firebird/velocities & accuaracy

[rooster721]

For the Lazzeroni guys.. and other hot-rodders

I've recently been working-on a Berger VLD load (168gr) for my rifle.. but am seeing my groups open-up significantly past 32/3300fps (an 88gr powder charge of 7828...)
- @86gr 7828, I've got 3122fps averages and sub-MOA groups..

The question I want to ask, is: do you guys start seeing wider groups at higher velocities in YOUR rifles?

for comparison sake... my 140gr handloaded Ballistic-tips fly 3450fps and will touch or pass-thru same holes @100yrds BUT faster (36/3700fps factory-loaded Lazz-ammo) also 140gr LIKE THE FASTER VLD's do too start giving wider-groups... *** - Is it the speed causing those bullets to become less-stable and my accuracy deminish, or what??

I've read many many posts of guys complaining they can't reach lazzeroni-spec speeds, but have to wonder if it's actually any significant benefit... to me, I am sure under ideal temperature-cond those fast 3800-4000fps speeds are attainable BUT if only to attain, then give poorer groups, is it worthwhile??

...3122fps and sub-MOA should be very respectable from a heavier 7mm-168gr bullet, should it not?? I'd like some opinions - if there be any

 

[rooster721]

Seventy-some odd reads and no feedback huh..?

For those interested then:

I backed-off my seating depth to tighten-up that group. Was 3/4"-1" to start with. Is 1/2"-3/4" now.. and probably be better if shot off a lead-sled or bench (am shooting mine only off a bi-pod) ...put 12 inside 1 1/2" today @ 200, checking zero w/the new load. 2 an inch outside those 12 (BOTH an 1/8" apart & BOTH final shots in 4-shot strings - says hot-barrel (to me) time to cool) ...I can live with that

...reguarding the speed thing though, I can't understand the widening groups @ the higher velocities. I simply settled for a 3090avg/fps (were my tightest-most consistent groups/speeds) and called it good.. recoil is much nicer, groups are waay tighter and maybe can add to the life of my barrel this way.

Still would appreciate opinions/input - if anyone shooting a firebird could comment??? ...definately amongst the lesser cowd, us Lazz guys

 

[LazzInc]

rooster ,,,,,

what is the twist on the barrel of your rifle chambered in the Lazzeroni 7.21 (.284) Firebird caliber ? ,,,,,

 

[rooster721]

...best of my knowledge, it's a 9.5" twist - 26" barrel

 

[rooster721]

John, for what it's worth.. I'm sittin' around 2000' elev and was doing that chorno-testing at about 5 degrees below freezing.

The first day I was shooting the humidex was around 60% and I had clocked (average) speeds in the 3125 range.. from those 86gr charges

The second day however, the day-time temps dropped by about 5 more degrees and the humidex had jumped to over 80% humidity.. my bullets slowed between 75-100fps! ...puzzled me to begin with, but explains itself thinking "weather conditions"

...this all (as I understood anyway, shouldn't have affected the SIZE of the groups reguardless) but obviously was playing a huge role in the speed those bullets flew

like I said though.. (for what it's worth) - those are the variables

 

[elktaxi1]

we have had all kinds of issues trying to push the 168s or any berger over 3200 seams like they dont like the speed. we spent a ton of time and money only to see that keeping them under 3200 is it. we had them tumble come apart but if you keep them under 3200 they are real good, give great groups and great b.c's. we were told to move to the hybrids and they are suposed to do way better and will hold up to the higher vol. this all was explained to me and two of my buddies by(quality control rep) from berger. but we havent tried the hybrids we are waiting the new lrx from barnes in 168. we did settle on the accu bond in 160 there hold up to the allens and some of the others out there pushiing them to 3600.

 

[rooster721]

Much appreciated "elk"

...that's very-good (interesting) information - corresponds pretty accurately with-what I was seeing too - A guy'd almost think Berger might "side-note" to their customers something along the lines of "3200fps preformance-threshold MAX" ...something like that anyway, especially considering they are "supposedly" aware of it

Might turn some potential customers away (in the case for Lazzeroni/Allen-shooters and such) BUT even that considered, (that) small market only accounts for approx-what 2% of the shooting crowd anyhow..? (believe those were the numbers I recall hearing 10yrs ago when I ordered our rifles!!) ...I doubt it would hurt them very much

..is really too bad the Bergers don't stand-up - I WILL take my 3100 and run fwiw, BUT knowing my rifle's got higher gears-to reach higher speeds, it be nice to have a bullet (BC/weight combo) that carries the way the VLD's do, that could match these rifles' real-potential - afterall, it's the reach-way-out-there reason (be it target, hunting or otherwise) that us 2% is investing in these hot-rods vs. the standard cal. anyways... is it not??

 

[elktaxi1]

yes it would have been real nice of them to put some kind of info out that they dont like 3200 plus. i thought it was funny that when i asked for load data on a 140 7mm vdl for a 7mm rum they give me loads that i thought would of hang fired in my friends gun. if you want to try for that 4000 with a 140, the barnes ttsx or accu bond will get it and seams to stay accuate in my 7mm they will get the 4000 and the 145 lrx in mine stays under 1 moa and gets real close to 4000 although barrel life is real short.

 

[LazzInc]

wow ,,, 4,000 fps with a 140gr in the 284 caliber is a pretty lofty goal even with the mighty Lazzeroni 7.21 Firebird ? ,,,,,

 

[djtjr]

My 6.5s seem to like ti bestvat 3050-3100 too and a bit slower was never detrimental to grouping but faster definately was

 

[Fiftydriver]

It is true that most of the current Berger bullets have a velocity ceiling of around 3200-3250 fps on average. Your problem is that your using a lighter bullet in big magnum chambering. Now that you know your limited to this velocity ceiling, you need to start looking at things from a different direction.

If your limited to 3250 fps, you would be much better off in the consistancy area if you use a heavier bullet weight. Again, if your limited to 3250 fps, why not drive a 180 gr VLD to 3250 then drive a 168 gr VLD to the same velocity????

Even better, when they come out with the new 195 gr version, drive that one to 3200 fps and you will see a huge increase in ballistic performance.

If you want speed, go to a bullet that will take the speed. For example, in my 7mm Allen Magnum, I can drive a 168 gr Berger to 3550 fps easily, unfortunately, anything past 3300 fps rips them apart so an accuracy load was around 3250 fps. On the other hand, you can load up the 160 gr Accubond to the same 3550 fps with great accuracy results.

My point being, if your limited by velociity, use the heaviest, longest, highest BC bullet you can at that velocity limit, much better then limiting yourself with a lighter bullet at the same velocity. The heavier bullet will also make the large magnum cases perform more consistantly with better powder ignition and burns.

 

[LazzInc]

The 139gr LazerHead load out of the Lazzeroni 7.21 (.284) Firebird is unleaded, quite fast and will hold together on the animal regardless of the terminal velocity ,,,

and with a BC of nearly .500, it is a top performer down range as well ,,,,,

Lazzeroni 7.21 Firebird factory loaded ammo in stock ,,,,,,,

 

[elkaholic]

As others have stated, you are tearing up your bullets. With that bullet, twist, and velocity, you are probably close to "not even reaching the target"! +1 on what Kirby said..........Rich

 

[rooster721]

It is true that most of the current Berger bullets have a velocity ceiling of around 3200-3250 fps on average. Your problem is that your using a lighter bullet in big magnum chambering. Now that you know your limited to this velocity ceiling, you need to start looking at things from a different direction.

If your limited to 3250 fps, you would be much better off in the consistancy area if you use a heavier bullet weight. Again, if your limited to 3250 fps, why not drive a 180 gr VLD to 3250 then drive a 168 gr VLD to the same velocity????

Even better, when they come out with the new 195 gr version, drive that one to 3200 fps and you will see a huge increase in ballistic performance.

If you want speed, go to a bullet that will take the speed. For example, in my 7mm Allen Magnum, I can drive a 168 gr Berger to 3550 fps easily, unfortunately, anything past 3300 fps rips them apart so an accuracy load was around 3250 fps. On the other hand, you can load up the 160 gr Accubond to the same 3550 fps with great accuracy results.

My point being, if your limited by velociity, use the heaviest, longest, highest BC bullet you can at that velocity limit, much better then limiting yourself with a lighter bullet at the same velocity. The heavier bullet will also make the large magnum cases perform more consistantly with better powder ignition and burns.

Kirby... I have a question in response

Reguarding the new 195gr Berger that's coming... would you think a slower twist barrel, like a 9.5 per-say vs the 8.5 reccommended, might be able to stabilize a 195gr/vld AT A FAST VELOCITY LIKE OUT OF AN ALLEN OR LAZZERONI OF SORT???
...the claim is; if a barrel is of too slow a twist to stabilize some particular bullet, one would need to increase the velocity to make-up-for and in-turn stablize it
BUT, just how much faster a velocity would we have-to-be, than a standard 7mag, to stabilize it in a 9.5 twist barrel? ...have you, OR ANYONE ELSE for that matter got any idea or way of figuring that out??