Lathe and Mill Recomendations??

[Trickymissfit]

I'm a machine builder (err was one), have an ME degree and could have my metallurgical engineering degree in 18 months. I've built everything from machine centers to gauge grinders, and a lot of junk in between. I look at all pieces of machinery as nothing but, bearings, shafts, and gears. Yet super precision grinders and somewhat of a different animal. Most of us couldn't afford a grinder with .000050" capability, let alone what it takes to make it work. Owning the machine is the easy part! Samething with a lathe of quality. A small vertical mill is easy, but also a much shorter life span.

So you all go out an buy something new or used. If you got a deal on a used piece of equipment, you probably got a deal on somebodies headache. Ninety percent of the population fails to understand the why's and what's of a spindle line design in anything. A lot more to it than replacing some ball bearings (or roller bearings). A lathe carriage can easily be known as a mechanical nightmare, and a half nut change out will often ruin the day. You can always figure that at the least the compound needs to be scraped. Three hundred hours probably means the cross slide needs some work as well (a few machines have hour meters on them, and this is a good indicator of things to come).

So you get yourself a quality lathe and mill in one form or another. Where you gonna put it? Eight inches of good concrete is about the minimum. Six inches won't really work even if it's the densest variety. I prefer ten inches or more. Concrete flexes all over the place. A Bridgeport can probably work on six inches of a better grade on concrete, but eight is still better. Grinders are easy.

Then after you get a good floor and some machines you get to install them.
gary

 

[shortgrass]

There have been many, many very accurate barrels chambered on nothing more than a South Bend 10X. Talk about light weight machines! I know of a BR gunsmith, who builds alot of rifles, does alot of chamber work, does only BR work, that has two of them in his shop that he uses. 1960s vintage machines, if I'm not mistaken. In reality, they are nothing more than 'bench lathes' mounted to a cabinet. But, a general gunsmithing lathe needs to have a larger swing and bed length to be able to do many different tasks, not just chamber a barrel. Metric thread capability would be a definate plus. Most "old American iron" doesn't offer that. There are 'good' imported machines, there are 'excellent' imported machine, and there is 'junk'. All in all, sounds to me like you're "getting the cart before the horse". If you had machining experience you'd not be asking on an interdnet forum. Go to school, get the best training you can get. Ask lots of questions. Experience the machine tools at the school. You'll be able to make a much more 'educated' decision that way. You may find, after attending school, that the machining end of gunsmithing isn't really what fasinates you. There is still such a thing as a "stockmaker"and a "metal finisher". There are fewer of those specialties out there today, that do first class work, than there are gunsmiths who do barrel work. For actual time spent and $$$$ outlay of equipment and materials I make much more, hourly wise, doing stock work or an eye grabbing slow rust blue to a 'classic' shotgun or wood stocked custom rifle (YES!,, they do still exist! And those wanting them aren't looking for a "discount!") than I get for barrel work. He!!,,, look how many 'hobbiests' have replied to this thread! They all want to do "their own barrel work". Everyone knows someone who'll "do it cheaper". There's a heck of a lot more to being a 'gunsmith' than being able to install a barrel.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Sidecar,

Ha, talk about parts left behind! I have 3 scars. One on each side below and nearly full length of the ribs. Another thru the navel down to the pubis:roll eyes: One was spleen removal, one was gall bladder removal. The third was right kidney removal. No more non-vital parts left. Oh, and the ol' liver is cirrhotic. So quitcherbitchn

Other than that I'm in great shape. However, I am bit tenuous regarding putting the finish on my paint mare. :roll eyes: Super well bred, bit of offish disposition and was completely screwed up by a crazy lady.

Oh, what was this thread about when it started?

I an't bitch'in..... I would think about having someone else (in better overall condition) break that nag for ya. been there, done that ain't doing it again

Nags have an attention span of maybe 15 seconds on a good day....

 

[westcliffe01]

The only advice I can give the OP is to skip the 10x20 or 9x20 size chinese lathes. The bed has such a tiny cross section on those that you will never be able to take a serious cut. All you will get is chatter.

By the time you get to the 14x40 size range, you are dealing with a more substantial amount of material in the bed, cross slide, saddle and headstock. The spindle itself will be a lot larger and have a workable size bore for pretty much any kind of gunsmithing job.

Just understand that the machines, as you get them, are not precise by any definition of the word. You can expect everything to be out of parallelism, square and concentricity. This applies to the headstock, tailstock, ways relative to headstock, cross slide relative to ways, tailstock spindle relative to headstock and ways etc etc. Like a house that is started on a non square and level foundation... If you have the gumption and time, most of this can be fixed, shimmed etc.

Something to generally think about, is that for gunsmithing purposes the main thing is to get the spindle parallel to the ways on 2 axis and then get the tailstock similarly aligned to the spindle. Usually, for the short distance that one would thread a barrel, any deviation of the saddle would be manageable. For machining the OD of barrels, don't even think about it without a taper attachment. The compound slide is far too short and is the least rigid part of the machine. Or else sub out that work to someone with a CNC lathe so you get a nice finish.

I went for old American Iron, but it is not a quick way to get from A-B either. I bought an old Sheldon I believe 15x60 (weighs about 3500lb) and took it to pieces since it had a lot of wear. I paid about $900 for it, including a huge new toolpost and several chucks. Sandblasted the bed down to white metal to get rid of all the corrosion and old bondo and got it painted with an epoxy primer by a local collision repair place. Then took it to one of the last shops left in the area and got the ways re-ground. They started by grinding the feet of the bed parallel to the ways, then flipped it over and cleaned up the ways (1 V + 1 Flat). It was a very modest cost, I know many places quoted over $2000, this place was about $600 and they are a very busy shop.

The leadscrew was completely shot and the saddle and cross slide still needs work. I am likely going to buy a new leadscrew from Misumi and then machine the ends to fit. Will then need to figure out how to rebuild the half nuts. So it is a long project for me, but a new machine of this size and weight would easily run $30k today.

At work, I bought one of the 14x40 size Chinese machines for $3800 and then spent some money fitting a semi decent buck collet chuck to it and re-cutting the adapter plates for the chucks so that they actually run somewhat true. We do not use the tailstock much except for drilling so have not messed with it, but we know it is off.

Best of luck...

 

[Trickymissfit]

There have been many, many very accurate barrels chambered on nothing more than a South Bend 10X. Talk about light weight machines! I know of a BR gunsmith, who builds alot of rifles, does alot of chamber work, does only BR work, that has two of them in his shop that he uses. 1960s vintage machines, if I'm not mistaken. In reality, they are nothing more than 'bench lathes' mounted to a cabinet. But, a general gunsmithing lathe needs to have a larger swing and bed length to be able to do many different tasks, not just chamber a barrel. Metric thread capability would be a definate plus. Most "old American iron" doesn't offer that. There are 'good' imported machines, there are 'excellent' imported machine, and there is 'junk'. All in all, sounds to me like you're "getting the cart before the horse". If you had machining experience you'd not be asking on an interdnet forum. Go to school, get the best training you can get. Ask lots of questions. Experience the machine tools at the school. You'll be able to make a much more 'educated' decision that way. You may find, after attending school, that the machining end of gunsmithing isn't really what fasinates you. There is still such a thing as a "stockmaker"and a "metal finisher". There are fewer of those specialties out there today, that do first class work, than there are gunsmiths who do barrel work. For actual time spent and $$$$ outlay of equipment and materials I make much more, hourly wise, doing stock work or an eye grabbing slow rust blue to a 'classic' shotgun or wood stocked custom rifle (YES!,, they do still exist! And those wanting them aren't looking for a "discount!") than I get for barrel work. He!!,,, look how many 'hobbiests' have replied to this thread! They all want to do "their own barrel work". Everyone knows someone who'll "do it cheaper". There's a heck of a lot more to being a 'gunsmith' than being able to install a barrel.

I learned on a Southbend Bench lathe, then one day I came into work and there was a brand new Southbend. They are extremely accurate for no more than what they are. There spindle line varies from year to year, but the early 1970's seem to be the better ones. They had a flame hardened way option that was well worth the money. Screw and nuts are a little weak, and the cross slide could have been heavier. The first compound I scraped was on the older Southbend with an old German standing over and cussing me! When you look at the Southbend lathe the first thing I see is an excellent bed casting. Reminds me a little of the Monarch hydraulic scaled down. They made a heavyduty lathe that was like the bench lathe on steroids. Good little lathe.

Now the most accurate bench lathe I've ever seen was a Hardingh. Here's one that will easily hold five tenths all day. The most accurate tool room lathe is probably a Monarch EE, but they have their own set of issues in the electronics (two styles, and no spare parts). The Colechester is probably the best gunsmith late on the market, but the Monarch is more accurate. Even an 10" or 12"x48" American (can be had cheap often) will do everything you want very well.

gary

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'll keep the Servo-Shift but I agree, a Clausing Colchester is a helluva machine, I just bid on one 2 days ago. Might be coming to Michigan soon.

I suspect I'll be getting dirty again.............

 

[Trickymissfit]

The only advice I can give the OP is to skip the 10x20 or 9x20 size chinese lathes. The bed has such a tiny cross section on those that you will never be able to take a serious cut. All you will get is chatter.

By the time you get to the 14x40 size range, you are dealing with a more substantial amount of material in the bed, cross slide, saddle and headstock. The spindle itself will be a lot larger and have a workable size bore for pretty much any kind of gunsmithing job.

Just understand that the machines, as you get them, are not precise by any definition of the word. You can expect everything to be out of parallelism, square and concentricity. This applies to the headstock, tailstock, ways relative to headstock, cross slide relative to ways, tailstock spindle relative to headstock and ways etc etc. Like a house that is started on a non square and level foundation... If you have the gumption and time, most of this can be fixed, shimmed etc.

Something to generally think about, is that for gunsmithing purposes the main thing is to get the spindle parallel to the ways on 2 axis and then get the tailstock similarly aligned to the spindle. Usually, for the short distance that one would thread a barrel, any deviation of the saddle would be manageable. For machining the OD of barrels, don't even think about it without a taper attachment. The compound slide is far too short and is the least rigid part of the machine. Or else sub out that work to someone with a CNC lathe so you get a nice finish.

I went for old American Iron, but it is not a quick way to get from A-B either. I bought an old Sheldon I believe 15x60 (weighs about 3500lb) and took it to pieces since it had a lot of wear. I paid about $900 for it, including a huge new toolpost and several chucks. Sandblasted the bed down to white metal to get rid of all the corrosion and old bondo and got it painted with an epoxy primer by a local collision repair place. Then took it to one of the last shops left in the area and got the ways re-ground. They started by grinding the feet of the bed parallel to the ways, then flipped it over and cleaned up the ways (1 V + 1 Flat). It was a very modest cost, I know many places quoted over $2000, this place was about $600 and they are a very busy shop.

The leadscrew was completely shot and the saddle and cross slide still needs work. I am likely going to buy a new leadscrew from Misumi and then machine the ends to fit. Will then need to figure out how to rebuild the half nuts. So it is a long project for me, but a new machine of this size and weight would easily run $30k today.

At work, I bought one of the 14x40 size Chinese machines for $3800 and then spent some money fitting a semi decent buck collet chuck to it and re-cutting the adapter plates for the chucks so that they actually run somewhat true. We do not use the tailstock much except for drilling so have not messed with it, but we know it is off.

Best of luck...

take your lead screws and nuts to Lead Screw International in Travers City. Excellent work. They did all my ball screw work, and some oddball acmes. The absolute best bed grind I've seen (and I've had many a bed ground) is from Viking Engineering in Hammond Indiana (very close to Chicago). They'll come and get the parts if it's fairly close (say 200 miles). Had them do two or three Bridgeports for me and when I checked their grind on the surface plate, I saw .0002" compound error. They have a grinder up there that will do .0003" in 20 feet!!!!!! I know for sure it will do .0002" in twelve feet, as I had them build me a bunch of ways for the X axis of Devleig jig mills.

Tail stocks are often messed up by folks that think they needed repair. When what they really needed was a proper bed alignment. If the bed is not dead strait, it will never cut strait. The V and the flat are somewhat of a black art, and few folks actually understand the proper ratios between the two. If the flat is too high, one side of the V will wear to fast due to the way it loads. If it's too low, the otherside wears too fast. Pray it's always too high as that's a bunch easier than scraping the v lower.
gary

 

[westcliffe01]

For a mill, I got a bridgeport style Kent mill, another heavy machine. For the $1200 I paid for it (in 2008 $ bills) I got a pretty big mill vice and 2 axis DRO as part of the deal and getting either of those new today would be more than what I paid for the whole thing. I have noticed that coming out the back side of the recession, there is very little of this kind of equipment on the market and what there is, is extremely beat up and people are asking a lot of money for it.

For what I am intending to do with the mill, it does not need any additional work, just installing the single phase to 3 phase Toshinba VFD to run the motor and provide a variable speed function. I will have to buy tooling as I need it and additional clamping items and step blocks for setting things up.

When the economy is down and people are closing up shop, you can get equipment in reasonable condition (for hobby purposes) for what is basically scrap metal prices.

 

[Hired Gun]

I don't think it's a very good idea to recommend an old wore out project to a guy who doesn't really know how to run it much less rebuild it. Very few good parts out there and parts with any meat left on the bone cost a bundle. I think it would be far better to recommend a new Taiwanese machine in the 2000+ pound weight class. They are really quite nice and should run a gunsmith for a couple generations. I like a 13" or 14" machines. A 40" between centers will allow some barrel profiling if desired. The 15 swing machines the chucks get super heavy super fast.

 

[Trickymissfit]

I don't think it's a very good idea to recommend an old wore out project to a guy who doesn't really know how to run it much less rebuild it. Very few good parts out there and parts with any meat left on the bone cost a bundle. I think it would be far better to recommend a new Taiwanese machine in the 2000+ pound weight class. They are really quite nice and should run a gunsmith for a couple generations. I like a 13" or 14" machines. A 40" between centers will allow some barrel profiling if desired. The 15 swing machines the chucks get super heavy super fast.

I made a lot of money undoing the workmanship of some machines from the far east, and also made a few dollars upgrading some of them. When you buy a machine, you usually get what you paid for in spades. Some (actually many) are not worth the time to rebuild, and some are. Problem is that few are actually good at the craft, and it's not really for an amateur. Scraping a slide is almost a black art these days, and if you know how; you got more work than you can handle.

Skip is big on the LeBlond Regale. A good machine, but not a Monarch! About once every three to four years you will break the plastic servo assembly. A pain in the butt the first time, but easy after that. Frame is a tad weak, unless properly bedded. (still better than most) The apron and carriage is a bitch on a good day. The half nut assembly will make you buy Malox by the case! Rest is pretty good. Still cuts a pretty damned good thread in some pretty tough stuff. I think the cross slide ways could have been designed with much more area (say 50%). The serious weak spot is the tail stock (like 75% of the lathes sold today). Just built too light. Nice thing about them is that they are an easy rebuild with the carriage being the only serious headache. Compared to a LeBlond heavy duty, they are a picnic! The last LeBlond I rebuilt ended up with brand new ways integrated into the chassis. Then I Moglice'd the slides. Gibs were made from Ampco bronze (maybe #14 or 12). Tail stock got a shim plate and an oversized spindle. Not proud of the tail stock but still better than OEM. When we set it up in the tool room, none of the old guys would touch it. They put the newest guy on it. He loved it after I did a few tweaks to the alignment, and adjusted the gibs one more time. Plenty of power for 17PH4 and hard turning. On the other hand next to it sat an American precision lathe. Boss had me scrape it and install new lead screws and nuts. Rest of it was pretty good. Tail was a complete nightmare, but I fought it till I won. It cut very well, and the tail stock was better (heavier), but not a Monarch! I'd almost swear the cast iron in the LeBlond is softer than the others, but doubt it in the end. Still all this is easier than doing a five axis machine center. Plus if you start out with a good frame design; you almost always build a good machine off it.

For a vertical mill, I've yet to see one better than the one sold by Willis Machine. It has removable ways and uses Turcite on the slides. Spindle group is way over size, and uses #40 tool holders. It's made like a Bridge Port on steroids.
gary

 

[Wisner74]

I don't think I am looking for something that I will need to rebuild when I get it. As far as room, I have that in my shop, I have the adequate concrete slab, I have the electrical ran.

When I was 19 I went to work at a machine shop in Silicon Valley, CNC mills and lathes as well as manual. Worked there till I was 21 and fricken loved it. But I took an engineering job with the state. looking for a stable career and retirement. I have always loved guns, how they work, and customizing them to want I wanted. But now I almost have my 20 years in doing something I have no passion for, I feel it is time to start preparing for my second career. Money isn't the issue. I have my plan and just want to start executing it to get a head start so when I quit I can hit the ground running.

But I don't have any experience to tell the difference from good machines to bad ones. Not really wanting to use the "if it is expensive it must be good" thought mentality!

 

[westcliffe01]

If you are going to get new equipment, take a long hard look at HAAS equipment. It is made in CA. They have a "toolroom" lathe and mill which can be operated manually, but also programmed to operate automatically. It is really hard to do better price wise.

Toolroom lathe
Haas TL-1 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

Toolroom mill
Haas TM-1 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

$60k for 2 machines might seem like a lot, but there is little that one would not be able to do with that pair of machines. That includes make tooling for injection molded parts, if one was to ever get into "production".

It would be easy to spend more than half that amount trying to buy Taiwanese made manual lathe and mill, which you then have to stand in front of any time you expect any output from the machine.

 

[Hired Gun]

A CNC is great at doing repetitious work. Not so good at individual custom one off jobs which by definition every single barrel we work on is. No two are ever the same.

Here is the direction went. When we got to the point we wanted to do precision barrel work. I spent $11,000 on a SunMaster ERL-1340 lathe. For us it is a total luxury item. I had mine custom made and shipped from Taiwan with a 7 1/2 horsepower motor, VFD for infinite speed control, a DRO and it weighs over 2200 pounds. It looks a lot like a Clausing Colchester except this one has no wear and I can buy parts for should I ever need them. It's never been crashed and I know it's been over maintained. I power it with a 15 horse digital controlled American Rotary phase converter. I also built a 2 horse high pressure filtered flush system to put pressurized cutting fluid through the barrel at 100 psi while chambering.

I could have made due with a machine half it's cost but am so glad I went this way. It's a pleasure to the eye and even better to operate. It's been flawless for 7 years so far and cuts impressively smooth. I can contour barrels with it and they come out smooth before ever seeing sand paper. One unusual one that stands out was an 18" 22LR barrel that was only .437" in diameter for a Marble's Game Getter. We actually built both barrels for it. In a real machine shop I suppose it wouldn't be worthy for very long but I expect this one to last a couple generations of small gunsmiths.

At the same time I bought the lathe I was lucky to find a preowned but never powered up PM 9x49 variable speed knee mill with DRO for $5000.

 

[shortgrass]

If you are going to get new equipment, take a long hard look at HAAS equipment. It is made in CA. They have a "toolroom" lathe and mill which can be operated manually, but also programmed to operate automatically. It is really hard to do better price wise.

Toolroom lathe
Haas TL-1 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

Toolroom mill
Haas TM-1 | Haas Automation®, Inc. | CNC Machine Tools

$60k for 2 machines might seem like a lot, but there is little that one would not be able to do with that pair of machines. That includes make tooling for injection molded parts, if one was to ever get into "production".

It would be easy to spend more than half that amount trying to buy Taiwanese made manual lathe and mill, which you then have to stand in front of any time you expect any output from the machine.

60K won't even get you started with those two machines. You'll need to buy a chuck and tool post for the TL1, and you'll still have cutting tools and holders to obtain. No vise or tool holders with the mill. And a clamping set is a necessity. It's no good without those. Gonna' do some fluting? Price even a manual dividing head, then price the 4th axis (you'll need a chuck for either one of those, too.). Delivery chgs. Do you have 3 phase power available? If not, you'll need a substantial phase convertor. You'd have to do a very high volume of work to justify the investment, and 'new' shops don't usually draw a high volume of that kind of work. Both of those would have to be "makin' money" at least 8 hrs a day, every day. Stick with decent quality manual machines. Gunsmithing isn't production work. Just a small amount of research will tell you how many start-ups fail in a short period of time.