Definitely. What amazed me was how it never stopped going. They're a tough critter.
Intersting find in my elk..
- Thread starter Mr. Magoo
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Obviously that's highly subjective. I tried to articulate it, marksmanship is a serious factor. But I've been moved to more gun over the years. Also to believe that too much is better than the alternative. Seeing an animal have to deal with a misjudgment, and a poorly placed shot by a very human mistake. I think energy compensates for some of those factors.
memtb
Well-Known Member
Bro and I had a really nice round of luck this year and we managed to nail a couple big bodied bulls on our ranch. It was nice to be able to use my tractor to hang it while skinning and breaking it down.
While separating the left shoulder from the body I found what was left of a 6.5mm bullet embedded in the rib cage just under the shoulder blade on the near side ..I.E. it only penetrated about 2" into the animal. The bullet weighed 75 grains and there were no other bullet fragments in the area.
There was no entry wound left in either the hide or shoulder meat, so this was obviously long enough ago that it had conpletely healed. No scar tissue, blood shot meat or any other sign of damage. Just a bullet sitting in perfect meat.
All the evidence points to this being a pass-through from another animal, since it was highly mushroomed with only 2" of penetration and no bullet fragments. Whatever brand of bullet it was, was very lightly constructed and hit with alot of velocity. I'm not used to seeing this much lead peeled off the core from what had to have been a pure lung shot.
Fyi I shoot a .270win and I'm of the opinion that its a bit too light for elk so I wouldn't shoot a 6.5 at elk unless that's all I had. Of course I've been hankering to get a new rifle so I'll use this a justification my that I need to step up in caliber
Couple questions:
1) What bullets are this lightly constructed?
I would not want this much frangibility for a few reasons. My thinking is that this bullet probably wouldnt hold up to any kind of bone hit, but I may be wrong. The other reason, (though we always understand this is always a risk) is over penetration leading to what happened to my elk.
2) do you prefer pass through or, bullet expending all of its energy in the animal for quickest stoppage of elk function?
Feel free to discuss bullet failures.View attachment 409062View attachment 409063
Over the years we've found several (at least two) similar! Both were small caliber, one was a .270 and the other smaller, cup and core. Both bullets had very little remaining mass, and showed minimal penetration!
Never have been and never will be a fan of small caliber, cup and core for larger big game! memtb
BrentM
Well-Known Member
Piles and miles of speculation. Pass through, hit a branch or tree, long range, pistol, blah blah blah. Just a lot of variables that can easily be argued and none matter in the end since the real story will never be told. Some people go big or go home with theories in their pocket, others choose big to make up for potential poor shot placement, and some push the limits of any cartridge they use. The 6.5 caliber is more than capable of doing the job. The user may not be up for it or recognize the limits however. I'm mixed on the use, guiding lots of elk hunts and seeing a lot of success with a 6.5, doesn't mean it's the best choice but it does work. Never good to see or hear of any failure, but it happens.
Shot placement, 1st, last, always. Born and raised in the UK, I've shot plenty of red deer, stags and hinds, 99% of them with a .270 and 130 Game kings. Culling hinds in the winter in Scotland often resulted in double digit kills a day. (Remember, no tags, no draws and no bag limits in the UK, for any species)
My dad and other gamekeepers had a phrase that was predominantly aimed at pheasant hunters but it also works for anything that bleeds that's stuck with me my entire life; "hit them in the arse and the head lives for a week. Hit them in the head and the arse dies immediately."
Moose are a hell of a beast but literally millions of them have been killed just fine by 6.5x55 rounds by Scandinavian hunters and still are. No magic caliber or bullet exists that will overcome poor shot placement.
On the 7mm Mag: shot my once in a lifetime Oryx this year on White Sands Missile Range. Stalked in a mile and made a 325 yard chip shot, kneeling from my tripod. Shooting factory Federal Terminal Ascent 155gr bonded bullets. High double lung shot that passed through both shoulders and was recovered under the hide on the far side. Bull died immediately, never took a step and still had grass in his mouth when I was prepping the Euro mount. Is this a bullet failure because it didn't exit? Clearly not because with the correct shot placement, every foot pound of energy that bullet had was dumped into the bull and his vitals, resulting in a DRT. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Period.
My dad and other gamekeepers had a phrase that was predominantly aimed at pheasant hunters but it also works for anything that bleeds that's stuck with me my entire life; "hit them in the arse and the head lives for a week. Hit them in the head and the arse dies immediately."
Moose are a hell of a beast but literally millions of them have been killed just fine by 6.5x55 rounds by Scandinavian hunters and still are. No magic caliber or bullet exists that will overcome poor shot placement.
On the 7mm Mag: shot my once in a lifetime Oryx this year on White Sands Missile Range. Stalked in a mile and made a 325 yard chip shot, kneeling from my tripod. Shooting factory Federal Terminal Ascent 155gr bonded bullets. High double lung shot that passed through both shoulders and was recovered under the hide on the far side. Bull died immediately, never took a step and still had grass in his mouth when I was prepping the Euro mount. Is this a bullet failure because it didn't exit? Clearly not because with the correct shot placement, every foot pound of energy that bullet had was dumped into the bull and his vitals, resulting in a DRT. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Period.
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Wyo37
Guest
Marksmanship is the factor.
It is obviously the individuals choice on what cartridge, caliber, and bullets to use for hunting.
Personally I choose a gun that I can comfortably shoot, year round, from field positions. A gun that allows me to observe the bullet's impact or miss (which coincidentally makes the gun enjoyable to shoot)
Personally, energy is never considered because it is a non-factor in killing things. Bullet construction and velocity are.
The mysticism concerning killing elk is interesting.
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memtb
Well-Known Member
Quote: Personally, energy is never considered because it is a non-factor in killing things. Bullet construction and velocity are.
^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ memtb
^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ memtb
buckbrush
Well-Known Member
A bunch of Fudd-lore here that's been passed around for years.
Most EU countries require you display proficiency with a rifle prior to obtaining a hunting license.
The Oregonian
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna call it now - 20 pages.
crkckr
Well-Known Member
Crack Checker... I was an aircraft inspector at an airline until my retirement. I was pretty good at finding cracks in stuff! You were thinking something dirty, weren't you?!
My (ex) father-in-law and I were in Montana hunting pronghorns. He says, you're pretty good at spotting these things, how about you find me a real nice one to shoot? I says, sure! So we go out to spot & stalk. I see one maybe 600 yards out, so we sneak in a bit closer, since I don't think he can make more than about a 200 yard shot at most, him using that same 7mm mag and scope (I had by this time painted an alignment stripe on it so he could easily see if it had moved). So we get up fairly close, laying down, me using binos and him using his scope (I tried really hard to break him of that nasty habit but never could, he just refused to carry binos, even though most of his hunting was done from a vehicle!). So looking this goat over I says, I think we should pass on this one, he's not that good. In reply I hear "boom" as he lets a round go from his cannon. He hits the goat... right in the lower jaw, removing it completely! Ah, rats! says I. Mr. GWH never bothers to fire another shot while this this dazed and confused goat takes off. My 270 is back in the vehicle. Me: choot 'em! GWH: total silence. Doesn't even rack another round into the chamber! Me: !#$%&!
So I hoof it back to the vehicle as quickly as my gimpy foot allows (motorcycle accident) and retrieve ExCaliber (the only rifle I own with a name, because anyone can pick it up and kill something with it) and the chase is on. I can barely see the goat by now as he heads out over hill and dale, so back we go to the truck again. By this time he's saying, Ah, we'll never see him again, let's just go find another one. I say: No way! You tagged him, he's yours! We are not going to let that animal bleed or starve to death! So the chase was on!
I followed him using whatever roads the local ranchers had cut as best I could. I finally got to within a few hundred yards of him. He had run out of gas and was actually trying to graze! I felt horrible but not my (already former, in my mind) hunting partner. I get out (alone, he stayed in the truck) and try a shot I am purely guessing at, since the longest range I'd ever actually shot this rifle was 200 yards! I knew the "abouts" from a computer program I had (Baltec, if anyone is actually old enough to remember back that far!) and it was pretty close but I only had it charted on my scope to 400 yards and right now I'm guessing this poor animal is out there at least 500 yards. So I lay down with my bipod and take a poke. No idea where the bullet hit but it was close enough to make him move a few yards... farther out, of course. I try another one and this time I see the splash way too short. I try another and get close enough to make him trot away. Back to the truck and off again! Clearly I need to get closer to him. GWH is still trying to talk me into letting the animal go and "let nature take it's course." I say, nature didn't have a thing to do with this! I was really kind of mad by this time and the more he talked, the madder I got. Grrrr.
So I get us up to within maybe 300 yards and I'm thinking this is perfect! I get out and start my sneak, hoping he doesn't move. I'm within 200 yards now and open the bipod and find a good spot. I don't even get him in the scope and he starts to run! WTH? I look back and here's the GWH standing on the ridgeline watching me! Arrrgh! I turn back and now our wounded warrior is out there, maybe 400 yards. I settle down and take a poke... right over his back! !##$%$&!! He takes off again and runs another couple hundred yards and stops. I take another poke and don't see a splash but he runs a bit farther. What else can go wrong? I'm ready to cry! I guess at a hold over since he's now about 700 yards out and hail Mary another shot. He stands there for a second then flops over. Doesn't kick or anything, DRT. The hunting gods have smiled upon my 130 Partition and put it right between his ribs, just a bit behind his shoulder! Its finally over!
Anyone want to take a bet as to who dressed the animal out and but him in the back of the truck... alone? No? No one? Well, good guess, because the GWH sat in the truck with the heater on, talking to his daughter (my now-ex witch) about his hard headed son-in-law while I did the work. I was not in least surprised but to be honest, I wasn't really in the mood for company anyway. And that was the last time I hunted with him, although... his daughter did manage a perfect shot on a walking deer at 200 yards with her .243 a few days later. He had never even considered letting his wife or daughters go hunting with him before. I was as proud of her as her mother was, since she was with us too! And bought a tag herself, deciding that she could do it. And she did, too. I think it rocked the GWH's world a bit, and for that I felt much better about the longest shot I had ever even tried on animal. I paced that shot off, by the way, at just over 700 yards, give a few either way!
The End (finally!)
Cheers,
crkckr
My (ex) father-in-law and I were in Montana hunting pronghorns. He says, you're pretty good at spotting these things, how about you find me a real nice one to shoot? I says, sure! So we go out to spot & stalk. I see one maybe 600 yards out, so we sneak in a bit closer, since I don't think he can make more than about a 200 yard shot at most, him using that same 7mm mag and scope (I had by this time painted an alignment stripe on it so he could easily see if it had moved). So we get up fairly close, laying down, me using binos and him using his scope (I tried really hard to break him of that nasty habit but never could, he just refused to carry binos, even though most of his hunting was done from a vehicle!). So looking this goat over I says, I think we should pass on this one, he's not that good. In reply I hear "boom" as he lets a round go from his cannon. He hits the goat... right in the lower jaw, removing it completely! Ah, rats! says I. Mr. GWH never bothers to fire another shot while this this dazed and confused goat takes off. My 270 is back in the vehicle. Me: choot 'em! GWH: total silence. Doesn't even rack another round into the chamber! Me: !#$%&!
So I hoof it back to the vehicle as quickly as my gimpy foot allows (motorcycle accident) and retrieve ExCaliber (the only rifle I own with a name, because anyone can pick it up and kill something with it) and the chase is on. I can barely see the goat by now as he heads out over hill and dale, so back we go to the truck again. By this time he's saying, Ah, we'll never see him again, let's just go find another one. I say: No way! You tagged him, he's yours! We are not going to let that animal bleed or starve to death! So the chase was on!
I followed him using whatever roads the local ranchers had cut as best I could. I finally got to within a few hundred yards of him. He had run out of gas and was actually trying to graze! I felt horrible but not my (already former, in my mind) hunting partner. I get out (alone, he stayed in the truck) and try a shot I am purely guessing at, since the longest range I'd ever actually shot this rifle was 200 yards! I knew the "abouts" from a computer program I had (Baltec, if anyone is actually old enough to remember back that far!) and it was pretty close but I only had it charted on my scope to 400 yards and right now I'm guessing this poor animal is out there at least 500 yards. So I lay down with my bipod and take a poke. No idea where the bullet hit but it was close enough to make him move a few yards... farther out, of course. I try another one and this time I see the splash way too short. I try another and get close enough to make him trot away. Back to the truck and off again! Clearly I need to get closer to him. GWH is still trying to talk me into letting the animal go and "let nature take it's course." I say, nature didn't have a thing to do with this! I was really kind of mad by this time and the more he talked, the madder I got. Grrrr.
So I get us up to within maybe 300 yards and I'm thinking this is perfect! I get out and start my sneak, hoping he doesn't move. I'm within 200 yards now and open the bipod and find a good spot. I don't even get him in the scope and he starts to run! WTH? I look back and here's the GWH standing on the ridgeline watching me! Arrrgh! I turn back and now our wounded warrior is out there, maybe 400 yards. I settle down and take a poke... right over his back! !##$%$&!! He takes off again and runs another couple hundred yards and stops. I take another poke and don't see a splash but he runs a bit farther. What else can go wrong? I'm ready to cry! I guess at a hold over since he's now about 700 yards out and hail Mary another shot. He stands there for a second then flops over. Doesn't kick or anything, DRT. The hunting gods have smiled upon my 130 Partition and put it right between his ribs, just a bit behind his shoulder! Its finally over!
Anyone want to take a bet as to who dressed the animal out and but him in the back of the truck... alone? No? No one? Well, good guess, because the GWH sat in the truck with the heater on, talking to his daughter (my now-ex witch) about his hard headed son-in-law while I did the work. I was not in least surprised but to be honest, I wasn't really in the mood for company anyway. And that was the last time I hunted with him, although... his daughter did manage a perfect shot on a walking deer at 200 yards with her .243 a few days later. He had never even considered letting his wife or daughters go hunting with him before. I was as proud of her as her mother was, since she was with us too! And bought a tag herself, deciding that she could do it. And she did, too. I think it rocked the GWH's world a bit, and for that I felt much better about the longest shot I had ever even tried on animal. I paced that shot off, by the way, at just over 700 yards, give a few either way!
The End (finally!)
Cheers,
crkckr
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isaaccarlson
Well-Known Member
I haven't shot an elk yet. A friend of mine works for the wildlife dept out west. He controls predator populations and does culling work. His gun is a 22-250 and he uses it on everything, including elk. I'm not sure what bullet he uses.
He invited me out to hunt elk and asked what I had to hunt with. I quickly replied that I had a crossbow and he said that wasn't legal there. I told him the only deer rifle I had was my 22-250. He said very seriously "that'll work just fine". I was a little shocked and asked him about it, and he said that he has killed piles of elk with it and never lost one. He said most people who show up to hunt cant shoot or are scared of their gun. He told me if you poke em in the ribs or brain, they go down. I have shot whitetail with my 22-250 and it's a fabulous killer.
I was too busy to make it out this year, but hopefully next year I can get a nice cow elk. (I'm not a trophy hunter)
He invited me out to hunt elk and asked what I had to hunt with. I quickly replied that I had a crossbow and he said that wasn't legal there. I told him the only deer rifle I had was my 22-250. He said very seriously "that'll work just fine". I was a little shocked and asked him about it, and he said that he has killed piles of elk with it and never lost one. He said most people who show up to hunt cant shoot or are scared of their gun. He told me if you poke em in the ribs or brain, they go down. I have shot whitetail with my 22-250 and it's a fabulous killer.
I was too busy to make it out this year, but hopefully next year I can get a nice cow elk. (I'm not a trophy hunter)
Bruce Hall
Well-Known Member
I had no problem dropping a large cow elk at 100 yards from my tree stand with a 153gr H-A tip. and 6.5 Creed. Lung and heart exploded, went 20 feet.
W
Wyo37
Guest
Only 20?
Just looked up the terminal ascent- hadn't seen it before but that may be what I was looking for and that's kind of why I started this conversation. Thanks for the post.
That sounds like perfect bullet performance and shot placement. A tougher bullet gives you the ability to aim at the shoulder and have it do what it did for you there...the soft front, bonded jacket and copper base let it perform well at varying distances.
Had no idea there were oryx at white sands. Learn something new every day.
