Identify this cartridge case.

[436]

I put this on another post in which another member was looking to ID "his" cartridge/subcaliber device, however, I think I might have better luck here. It's always been a mystery to me, any thoughts on your end would be appreciated.

Guy's... not trying to hi-jack this threat just throwing a little mind candy out here. First I think my last post identifies the original question here. So, if you want a real mind teaser perhaps someone can identify this case; see photos... Short story... We were working in the field in the late 70's I think 79... we came into a training area where the "D" Boys or The Unit guys had just left a couple of hours ahead of us. Normally they're pretty good about policing up things in their AO of items they don't want people to see, anyway I found a few of these cartridges between the cracks so to speak; they are... NATO sampled, Lake City, 71... they are (or seem to be) brass but have a different feel about them, they also have a lacquer-like finish too them and over the years have not oxidized, you know the green stuff or discoloration spots anywhere on them, inside or out. They have six holes on the shoulder, the caliber is .30 cal and the case dimension are the same as a 7.62x51mm NATO they don't appear to have been factory crimped. One thing here; the mouth looks like it has a small dent like it may have come out of a semi/full-auto. I called Lake City many years ago and they said (or at least the person I spoke with) said; they knew nothing of the cartridge that I was describing at the time, yeah'..., my thoughts as well'..., with L.C stamping on it??? Anyway, I've worked with serialized ammo/cartridges,
and subcaliber devices from .17 cal to the 90mm and106mm recoilless before, but have never seen anything close to this one. In the photo are three cartridges, the one on the left is the aforementioned cartridge in question, the center is a handload in a commercial case, and right is a serialized with no markings as to the origin of the user(s).
This is not a trick question, like I know what it's, "no" I really don't know what the cartridge is, and what usage it would have had with the "D" Boys at the time, I'm sure when I find out someday'..., I'll find the answer was in front of me all the time.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Perhaps a blank ? Just a guess

Long live Remmy700

 

[JKB57]

maybe for grenade launching or flare or just a dummy rd of sorts for headspacing or practice rd

 

[del2les]

I have seen similar cases from plastic bullet training rounds that feed through and M-60, and I believe the cases were of a copper/brass washed steel case with a lacquer coating. Let me see if I can find the data in one of my military cartridges books.

OK, after finding the casing in one of my military cartridges of the world, I was wrong on the above. Here is the explanation:

This cartridge was fired in the 7.62 mm M149A1 subcaliber used for training with the 90 mm M67 recoilless rifle. An explanation for the holes on the shoulder can be found in the manual: "The device utilizes a case blow-out principle through six equally spaced holes in the chamber shoulder section of the barrel. These holes permit the cartridge case to be blown out, and limit the pressure which in turn lowers the velocity to match ballistically the major caliber round"

 

[436]

I have seen similar cases from plastic bullet training rounds that feed through and M-60, and I believe the cases were of a copper/brass washed steel case with a lacquer coating. Let me see if I can find the data in one of my military cartridges books.

OK, after finding the casing in one of my military cartridges of the world, I was wrong on the above. Here is the explanation:

This cartridge was fired in the 7.62 mm M149A1 subcaliber used for training with the 90 mm M67 recoilless rifle. An explanation for the holes on the shoulder can be found in the manual: "The device utilizes a case blow-out principle through six equally spaced holes in the chamber shoulder section of the barrel. These holes permit the cartridge case to be blown out, and limit the pressure which in turn lowers the velocity to match ballistically the major caliber round"

del2les,
It could be, but... I've used both subcaliber devices in the 90mm and the 106mm recoilless rifles and we used a standard 7.62x51mm NATO ball and/or tracer rounds for near all training. I don't recall ever seeing this case or cartridge involved with them subcaliber-device for the 90mm and 106mm. Not saying it wasn't, but... I never saw one, and I shot a lot of rounds down range with them both. The recoilless subcaliber devices are the same other than; dimensions for each caliber of the rifle, and.... both took the 7.62x51mm NATO as I remember. I never saw a blank that was dedicated too either, however it's obvious you could pop-off a blank if you had one and wanted too. In fact, the only blank I am aware of his the 7.62x51mm, NATO, were XM192, and it's not a grenade launching cartridge, the grenade launcher cartridge was the M64. Bottom line; I don't find it listed anywhere which kinda makes me think perhaprs it was made by L.C for a NATO allie country??? And the search goes on.

 

[del2les]

According to the manuals' descriptions, it does use the standard or tracer round, but during the firing process, the chamber has vent holes that during firing cause the round to perforate the shoulder with 6 holes to reduce velocity to match the main round's trajectory. At least that is what my books are stating.

Ran it by a couple of guys at the International Ammunition Association, and they came back with the same conclusions. Spotter round fired in a sub-caliber device for a recoiless rifle.

 

[436]

According to the manuals' descriptions, it does use the standard or tracer round, but during the firing process, the chamber has vent holes that during firing cause the round to perforate the shoulder with 6 holes to reduce velocity to match the main round's trajectory. At least that is what my books are stating.

Ran it by a couple of guys at the International Ammunition Association, and they came back with the same conclusions. Spotter round fired in a sub-caliber device for a recoiless rifle.

del2les,
Interesting, it makes sense in that respect and I'm not questing the book(s) however the ones I've used in the (70s) in both the 90mm and the 106mm have ballistic vents cut into the subcaliber barrels-- (like the H&K-MP5SD which in it's case makes all 9mm ammo subsonic in the gun)-- however in the recoilless rifle case to vent expanding gas and achieve the required velocity to match the main rifle round'..., so, there really wouldn't have been any need for a cartridge to perform the same tasks. If you check out the original diagram I posted you'll see the vent holes in the M9 in 106mm subcaliber device, and here's a photo of a 90mm used in a class you can see (might be hard though) on the 90mm subcaliber device standing on the ground, there are holes in the front shoulder where gas from the 7.62x51mm NATO comes out for a little more realism and am sure safety in training you know the Army '..., again the barrel in the sub-device is venting gases. I'd appreciate it if you could share the names of your references. I'd like to pick up your reference, especially if it's something like; FM 23-82, TM-9-1015-221-35 or TM-9-1300-204... I might have the 23-82 somewhere in the black hole in my garage but as I recall I never saw the cartridge in it, but... it's been years. Again, thank you for your info.

 

[del2les]

Was there a difference in the M9, pictured above, and the M149A1 devices listed in the manual's description?

 

[del2les]

M149A1 subcaliber for M67 90mm recoiless
The breech end, showing the holes that bleed off pressure. A rifle bullet goes too fast and has too straight a trajectory - these holes bleed off the gases so that the bullet's trajectory will more closely mimic that of the service round. It also will cause there to be some effect (noise and perhaps some heat) from the breech of the gun.

Another shot of the breech, with two holes lined up showing that they do indeed go through. This is right about the neck/shoulder of the cartridge

The pics show when I try to edit but do not when I post, so here is the link to these photos: http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2012/04/the_90mm_recoil.html

 

[del2les]

http://www.cartrology.com/cartridges/890

 

[436]

Was there a difference in the M9, pictured above, and the M149A1 devices listed in the manual's description?

del2les,

Here something funny, when I type in M149A1 device here's what I come up with; Marine Corps AMK23 Cargo Truck with M149A1 Water Tank Trailer... if you have a better description of the M149A1 perhaps that would help. I don't have the manual(s) to compare with on hand. I believe your post has a "1" in the description where it was not needed as I think about it, it should be M49A1 I guess I should have thought about harder... , as I read the description of the device (M49A1) it's not the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge fired in it, am I wrong?

"The M49A1 subcaliber device (fig. 16.1) consists of a long, cylindrical sleeve, a barrel, a bushing with an integral hinge, a locknut housing, a firing pin: and attaching hardware. The device utilizes a case blow-out principle through six equally spaced holes in the chamber shoulder section of the barrel. These holes permit the cartridge case to be blown out, and limit the pressure which in turn lowers the velocity to match ballistically the major caliber round."

If you look in the photo I sent, you can see the holes in the shoulder of the M49A1 which I believe they are describing, and I recall there were six holes. Which is still leaving me with a question; where is the information on the actual (six-hole) cartridge itself, other than it uses a 7.62x51mm NATO

http://www.cartrology.com/cartridges/890

N

http://www.cartrology.com/cartridges/890

del2les,
Wow, now my head is spinning... the article you sent says; "The holes in the case shoulder are the result of being fired in the M149A1 subcaliber trainer for the M67 90mm recoilless rifle." when in fact as'..., I mentioned earlier the M149A1 is a water tanker of the USMC'..., the 90mm designation is M49A1 from what I can find, and the holes in the cartridge??? I never ran into that with a 90mm recoilless ever, plus they are saying it's a none projectile cartridge aka a blank, why vent it, I don't believe a blank/none project cartridge could develop enough pressure needed to cut holes anyway, and yet there is no Military designation of the cartridge itself in the article, you know like M80 Ball or M118 Match which is what the Military uses on all its ammo other than serialized ammo... the information you sent also said it was crimped, no way'.., I know what a crimped case looks like; these that I have, have never been crimped. One last thing, if you look at the hole in the shoulder in person you'll see they look factory cut, not from an act of being blown out. I know you're just going by the information you could obtain and I do appreciate your input, but... I don't think that's it even though the photo of the cartridge is correct, not saying I'm right although there are questions from what I can see, thanks again. Oh, I forgot, nowhere can I find where the US Military list that type of a cartridge in the 7.62x51mm NATO case, and they list something like 28 deferent types of 7.62x51mm NATO configurations even the blank and dummy rounds, I really think "cartrology" need to rethink this one, if I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit I have it wrong. Cheers

 

[del2les]

LOL...Yea, if you simply search for the M149A1 without "subcaliber" or M67 or 90mm recoiless, it does come up as the water tank. Ha, ha.

Everything I find states the sub-caliber round used is a standard ball or tracer round and because of the 6 holes in the chamber/shoulder area to vent gas, the casing ruptures in 6 very clean holes. The case is NOT made this way prior to firing. (See the photos above for the vent holes in the Savage made barrel in the M149A1 device.)

Also, it seems the original designation of M149A1 was later changed to M49A1. Talk about adding to the confusion, but my guess was to avoid future confusion with the M149A1 Water Tank. Ha....

 

[del2les]

TM 9-1015-223-12
pages: 66-68 (on the PDF reader) describe the M149A1
OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS FOR 7.62-MM SUBCALIBER GUN M149A1.

 

[436]

Sorry out of town a few days, thanks for the TM, but... still it doesn't mention the cartridge in question by name or description, all they mention is the M80 being fired in it. I still can't find anywhere they say it pressure cuts holes in the M80 cartridge, at any rate, it may be getting closer'..., thanks again for your input. The six holes in the subcaliber device are on the shoulder of the subcaliber device itself, and it's shoulder being the same size as the main gun 90mm round I don't believe there is any way the M80 could match those hole up and pressure cut the M80 ammo do to the size differential. I know that the barrel does have venting holes in the barrel, not the chamber, as I recall'..., to reduce the velocity of the M80 just like the 106mm subcaliber device. So, special subcaliber subsonic ammunition wouldn't be needed. I would really think if the 90mm subcaliber device was pressure cutting the M80 cartridge they would have came out and just said it in plain language, or if this (cartridge in question) was a special purpose cartridge for subsonic rounds they also said the same, last as a special purpose blank, I'm sure they'd list it and mentioned by its designated code or name. Cheers