Hows this for 200 yd 5 shot group?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by RangerBrad, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Hey fellas, a friend that has reloaded for about 18 years has been helping me put together a load for my 25-06. He has my rifle and e-mailed me this pic yesterday. He has tried a few diffrent loads but came back to my original 54gr of H4831sc behind a 115gr berger VLD crimped. Don't know what happened to the flyer but I thought the rest looked good. What say yal? Thank's, Brad

    [​IMG]
     
  2. HntWhtTail

    HntWhtTail Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    51
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2011
    Not bad throw out the flyer and your looking a .75 inches at 200. for the average guy thats better than average at 100 so your twice as good as average., I am rambeling. Nice groop.
     

  3. Shumba

    Shumba Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    159
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    My advise is to tell your friend to load that same thing Without the crimp and see what it looks like, it is possibly the cause of your "flier". There is really no need to ever crimp a bolt action bullet. On top of that it can only hurt accuracy and there is no benefit to crimping in most practical situations.
     
  4. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    I agree as this rifle seems to produce the same crimp or no crimp. however, there always seems to be a flyer somewhere in a five shot group regardless of who is pulling the trigger and very randomly. It would make since if it were every first shot or 3rd shot or last shot but it is random. Maybe the first shot this time. last shot next time or anywhere in the middle. If I make a 5 shot group I'll always have 3 or 4 waded up in a tight group but 1 or 2 will completely ruin the group. I wonder if I may need to drop my load by a grain or 2? Thank's, Brad
     
  5. Jokostel

    Jokostel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    350
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2011
    Im guessing barrel heat or ignition... Id try a different primer first....
     
  6. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    I began with Remmington 9 1/2 primers then moved to federal match primers but its doing the same. Even letting it cool between shots does the same, just bad magic I guess. Brad
     
  7. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    The string of 4 is .687 of an inch long. Brad
     
  8. Shumba

    Shumba Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    159
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Possibly moving in bedding also make sure your bottom metal and mag box are not in a bind putting any preassure at all on the receiver. Make sure the scope bases are not slipping. If you have an aftermarket triggerske sure no part of it is contacting the stock. Just a few things to look at.
     
  9. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Thank's fellas, I'm considering trying some Retumbo or H1000. The Berger reload data shows a gain of about 100 fps. Have any of yal tried these powders with this round? if so what were yals thoughts? My buddy said he thinks it would be hard to improve on this load. Your thoughts? Thank's, Brad
     
  10. Tikkamike

    Tikkamike Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,353
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2009
    Some people will say "hey nice group if you throw out the flier" well you simply cannot. it is there and needs to be addressed. Noone wants a rifle that shoots good most of the time. and from your post its not a cold or clean bore flier, its a random happening. All the more reason to find it and eliminate it.
    Assuming all is right in your bedding and scope mounting and this is indeed a true reflection of your rifles performance you need to do some tuning. obviously the rifle is able to put several shots into a nice group, there are a few things I would do. FIRST you need to find out what is causing the Flyer, barrel harmonics? velocity? fouling? I think we can rule out fouling because you said it happens inconsistently might be 1st,3rd, 5th shot etc.. Is he shooting the groups over a proven chronograph? if so what is the ES of the group? do the fliers have a significantly higher or lower velocity than the rest of the group? if so you need to look into eliminating that from the equation, which would include NOT crimping anymore, annealing case necks, maybe switch to bushing dies if you are using brass with consistent neck thickness. Maybe a different primer.
    Next Maybe it is in your barrels harmonics, each powder has its own burn rate. that burn rate has an effect on the vibration of the barrel and where it is at in relation to point of aim when the bullet leaves the muzzle. It is possible that specific powder is not the ideal match to your rifle.
    Do not over look shooting rest, Boss Hoss can teach you a great deal on this if you PM him and ask him the proper way to set up your rest. Is your barrel free floated or is there upward pressure from the forearm? maybe try slipping paper between the forearm and barrel creating progressively more and more upward force see what that does to your group.
    Also shoot larger groups. see what happens with a 10 shot group over the chronograph, and do it several times the more data the better. 5 shots is relatively worthless data in this situation. you need to be able to spot a pattern. So the more you shoot the better. and when you change something only change one thing at a time that way you can use the process of elimination. More than likely this will be something very minor and you will see that flier disappear and your group tighten up. the box or 2 of bullets that it might take to find the problem is a worthwhile investment in your rifles accuracy and your confidence in that rifle
     
  11. RangerBrad

    RangerBrad Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    290
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Thank's Mike, I have run my shots through a chronograph alot. With 54gr of H4831sc I am averaging 3035fps and velocity diffrences are in the 10-30 fps area. though this has made no diff on the flyer as it may be the fastest, slowest or middle of pack. It also did this regardles if the neck was crimped or not. Your also right about 5 rounds not being enough. I have shot 20 or 30 rounds with cleaning and cooling in between only to find the same problem. 14-15 shots waded up with the remaining shots as flyers.
    This rifle was rebuilt this summer with a new Kreiger #5 barrel, trigger work, floated barrel and beded action. Ive only run H4831sc and H4350 in it and believe I will try some Retumbo. Maybe that will work. I have always run winchester brass and did use some Remmington 9 1/2 primers but am now using the federal match primers initially to cut down on velocity diffrences which were unaffected by the change in primers but now as they are more availiable where I purchase my reloading gear. Brad
     
  12. RTK

    RTK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    331
    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    What was the final outcome Brad
     
  13. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,210
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Throw out the flier and it's pretty nice Brad.

    You say it's consistent in producing fliers so if it were me I'd be focused on trying to figure out why.

    Is the flier consistent as far as 1st, 2nd, 3rd.. . Shot?

    I've fount with them for years on different rifles and usually it comes down to a scope/mount issue.

    I had an old steel case weaver (beast of a scope) that did this to me on three different rifles until the interior lens finally cracked. Turned out it had been slightly loose since it came from the factory which eventually led to the final failure.

    Unequal pressure on the bolt lugs is another problem I found on some rifles. Once diagnosed and fixed (lots of lapping) that problem too was solved.

    Another on a 220 swift turned out to be related to inconsistencies in the neck thickness on the brass I was using.

    Fliers that are less than 1 MOA don't bother me but outside of that they drive me friggin nuts.
     
  14. baldhunter

    baldhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    446
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    I'd say,that's purty darn good!At 200yards,for me it's easy to be off an inch just lining up the crosshairs on the target.If you are shooting those kind of groups,I wouldn't worry.If you are,you are a hell of a better shot than me.