Howa .338 edge?

[Fiftydriver]

Hamr56,

I am all for new wildcats but I think they need to have a real purpose. Many have said that several of my own wildcats are nothing more then this, same thing in a different package compared to other wildcats.

In some cases, I agree. My 338 AX is nothing different then many other improved 338 Lapua wildcats. In fact the only reason there is a 338 AX is because I had alot of customers that owned my 338 Allen Magnum rifles and wanted something with longer barrel life so they did not eat up their AM barrels as quickly.

Many of them demanded a 338 version of my 7mm Allen Magnum. If it had not been for that, there would have never been a 338 Allen Xpress as it it really does not follow the Allen Magnum moto, farther,faster and flatter then ever before.

Still its at the top of the conventional 338 chambering performance ladder and there was alot of demand for it.

If you look at my original Allen Magnums, there is a clear seperation of their performance levels and what was available at the time.

In fact when I designed my 257, 6.5mm and 270 Allen Magnum, I was told by most of the experts that they were a waste of time.........

When I designed my 7mm AM, most of the experts said it would offer nothing more then the 7mm RUM and just burn barrels up in a couple hundred rounds....... Now with easily 150 fps more performance then the RUM and often 200 fps more and rifles going on 600 and even 800 rounds down the barrel, again, proved 'em wrong.

I just do not see a real benefit of the 338 SIN for the rifles its supposed to be designed to be used in. As I have mentioned elsewhere, the 338 SIN, or 338-375 RUGER which is nearly identical or 330 Dakota would be much better matched in the Ruger M77 MkII rifles where its much more difficult to increase mag box length compared to the Howas and as far as the Savage rifles are concerned, unless the barrels are replaced with a Rem 700 style barrel design, I do not feel they are adequate for this class of chambering anyway.

Again, nothing against this design, I just believe there are easier choices that will offer more performance then this wildcat. Does not make much sense looking at it that way......

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Montanarifleman,

Exactly why would the Edge be pushing the Howa to hard. The Howa comes factory made in the 375 RUger which is nothing but a shortened 375 RUM. Added case capacity has nothing to do with bolt thrust. Case head diameter is the only consideration so if the Howa is adequate for the 375 Ruger it is fully adequate for any chambering on that same case head diameter.

Then for you to recommend a MkV in a Lapua over a Howa, obviously this is not wanted to be a high dollar project, just good results. Why in the heck jump to the MkV which is not the best choice anyway. Hell, a Rem 700 would be vastly superior in cost and precision and then chamber it in the Edge for exactly the same performance as the Lapua or my Ultra Maxx for slightly more.....

Your recommendations confuse me a bit.

Howdy Kirby, hope you're having a great Montana day

Let's start by looking at what actually said...."you might be pushung that action a bit with the EDGE." Didn't say for sure that the Howa is not up to it. And here (posted link) is one reason why I mentioned it, (and another reason I'll share in PM).

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/new-sendero-troubles-67357/index3.html

If you follow this thread from post #19 - #28, one of our members pointed out to me that the Howa's are made of investment cast, and are known for catastrophic failure's in the larger mags in his country (he provides a picture of one such failure of one chambered in the Lapua). To what extent this is a real problem, I am unsure? Maybe a few guys just tried to push it too hard? That being said, I am "unsure" of the Howa's ability to handle an overpressure situation and "my view" on the subject is not to have them chambered in anything larger then what the factory chambers them in, ie., the 300 Wby Mag.

Another reason besides it's well proven and known strength, and I am just guessing on this one, is that the Mark V probably has a mag box that will already accommodate the Lapua (or RUM) without modification. This falls in line with the KISS principle and allows the client to put $$$ toward a superior action vs making the lesser action fit the need. Another reason, in order to seat 180 E-Tips to just off the lands in my 700 300 RUM i need a COAL of 3.74 which does not allow me to put more than one down in the 700 mag box. The COAL for the 210 Bergers is 3.75. I suppose the throat could be reamed a little shorter, but that would result in the bullets encroaching on case capacity - probably not a real big deal but I would like to get all the efficiency I can.

On the cost diff between the Howa and Mark V... for a budget build, one could get a used Mark V Accumark for less than a $1000, maybe even $700 or so if one looked around a bit, and have a good stock and action for a reasonable price.

While we're on the subject, I would love to know your opinion on the the Howa and 700 action. I have rifles with both actions and like the Howa better, not that the 700 isn't a good action, but for reasons list in the thread I linked, I do like the Howa better.

Cheers, looking forward to your thoughts

-Mark

 

[bigngreen]

Bigngreen,

I do not understand the hype of the 338 SIN. The 330 Dakota is the exact same thing performance wise, the 338-375 Ruger is nearly identical in every way except some meaningless minute dimensional changes I assume they made simply so they could rename it.

Convert the Howa to a Rem 700 RUM mag box and use the 338 RUM, it will outperform all of these "new" wildcats and do so with factory brass and standard cost dies.

As far as chambering the Howa in a Lapua class chambering, not only is that not wise but its not needed. The Lapua, because of its much larger case head diameter imposes much more bolt thrust onto the receiver. Its just not needed when you have the RUM case that has identical capacity and performance when loaded to correct chamber pressures and is completely safe in the Howa receiver.

On top of that, the RUM brass will let you know well before your getting into dangerous chamber pressure ranges whereas the lapua will just smile at you even at the 70,000 psi range which is WAY to much for even the Rem 700 or supposed "unbrakeable" Wby MkV.

The main thing that is interesting about the 338 Sin is that it is very much plug and play, no machine work while functioning easy in the standard mag. For the DIY Savage guys it's an easy fit, it doesn't seem like it has been over hyped at all as it has been made for a small expressed group, performance will be similar to a pile of others but for some it will fill a small gap.

That said I did find some details, that you added to about milling the receiver and using a Wyatts mag, this could completely change what I would like to do, I already have a 338 RUM reamer. Initial thought was a 338 Norma before knowing about using an extended mag box, the only reason to know about the Lapua class case is just to know the limit of the action, some say the WSM is to much for the Howa others will chamber the Lapua so I'm looking for the the limit so as to stay under it not really push it like it may come of as.

 

[darrindlh]

I would never chamber a lapua class rifle in a vangaurd/ howa action. Not even strong enough. Does not surprise me of the action failure with a lapua class magnum.
That being said I would have no reservation to build a 338 edge class rifle on a Howa/vanguard action. All it is is a 300 rum necked out to a 338. Or a 300 weatherby necked out to a 338. It is plenty strong enough. I am in talks with kirby now and I am going to have him build me a 338 edge off of my vanguard 300 wm. I trust him

Darrin

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I would never chamber a lapua class rifle in a vangaurd/ howa action. Not even strong enough. Does not surprise me of the action failure with a lapua class magnum.
That being said I would have no reservation to build a 338 edge class rifle on a Howa/vanguard action. All it is is a 300 rum necked out to a 338. Or a 300 weatherby necked out to a 338. It is plenty strong enough. I am in talks with kirby now and I am going to have him build me a 338 edge off of my vanguard 300 wm. I trust him

Darrin

Darrin,

This confuses me... The Lapua and the EDGE are exctly the same case capacity and the Lapua offers much tougher brass. If I were going to do one, it would be the Lapua and not the EDGE.

Why would you do an EDGE and not a Lapua?

-Mark

 

[darrindlh]

The reason that I am going with edge is because my action is not strong enough for the 338 lapua round. I agree both have the same case capacity however case capacity is not the reason that I should use a standard mag action for a lapua. The 338 lapua is a larger more bolt thrust.

"The large boltface combined with the high maximum pressure makes that the .338 Lapua Magnum should only be chambered in rifles that are capable of handling such large and fierce cartridges and thus high bolt thrust safely. Chambering such powerful super magnum cartridges in rifles intended for normal magnum rifle cartridges and using high pressure loads can cause serious or fatal injury to the shooter and bystanders."

This was taken from the devolpment and history of the 338 lapua magnum. This is why I am building a 338 edge. It does not require a larger bolt face.

Darrin

 

[Fiftydriver]

MontanaRifleman,

Those cases may have been true for older Howa rifles. I can not dispute that. BUT, howa now chambers their rifles in the 375 Ruger which is a RUM case shortened to 2.500 in length and has a very similiar shoulder design as the RUM. Basically its identical to the 375 RUM except that the case is 0.350" shorter. As such, it will generate EXACTLY the same amount of bolt thrust onto the receiver as a full length 375 RUM will. The stress imposed onto the receiver is based on the size of the case head, nothing more or less. The larger the case head, the more bolt thrust because the same amount of PSI is being applied but over a larger area so the total thrust is greater.

I am sure that Howa has fully tested their receiver with the 375 Ruger and proven it plenty capable of this level of bolt thrust. If it will handle this, it will handle the RUMs.

To that same point, the 338 Lapua has a significantly larger case head diameter and area. As such, 65,000 psi in the Lapua will produce dramatically more bolt thrust then a RUM loaded to the same 65,000 psi.

This is why you really have to beef up a receiver and barrel to use a 408 CT class wildcat. Larger case head diameter imposes MUCH higher bolt thrust levels to the receiver even at same chamber pressures.

There is a reason that the 50 BMG is loaded to 55,000 psi. Even though the receivers are huge, if you up pressures to the 65,000 psi level that is common with todays magnums, you will generate a bolt thrust that would stress even the large BMG class receivers.

Its not case length or capacity that determines how it stresses a receiver. Its case head diameter and chamber pressure.

Another example is the 223 Rem. I have studied tests with this little round where loads were driven up to nearly 85,000 psi and the only thing that happened was pierced primer pockets with no receiver damage at all. In the same test, they took a larger diameter case, I believe it was a 300 Win Mag and loaded it to this same pressure range and the bolt lugs were set back to the point the receiver was spoiled. If that level of pressure was put in a Lapua case head diameter, the receiver likely would fail or at least be locked solid.

As far as the Howa to Remington comparision. I like the Howas but they are no where near as easy to work with. Barrels can be a serious pain to break loose. I have had several that I could have stood on my 6 foot breaker bar and still not turned them loose. I certainly would never do that as you can tweak a receiver easily if you force it so in those cases I simply cut the barrels off and bored out the barrel segment left in the receiver. The funny thing, once the shoulder of the barrel had been machined off, the barrel shank often can be turned out by hand???? Go figure. Not sure what those guys do to make some of the barrels so tight but some are amazingly hard to break loose.

The receivers are not that hard to accurize but the bolts are a bit more difficult, just need to make up some custom tooling and fixtures to do it.

now if your just doing a simple barrel replacement and perhaps lapping the lugs and no full accurizing, no problem.

The Rem 700 trigger options are much better all around. magazine box options are also better for the Rem 700. Its also easier to bed a Rem 700 as well. In the end, for a precision rifle build, the Rem 700 is hands down superior but the Howa is a much better receiver and rifle then most give them credit for.

 

[paul2atlo8]

Its not case length or capacity that determines how it stresses a receiver. Its case head diameter and chamber pressure.

I am in agreement with this, good thread.

 

[pitbull320]

nwolf I would look at kriby's 338 ultra max I just got one from him and did some load's to day and was very impressed 300gr smk running out at 3032 in remington brass and 3091 in fed brass and it is based of the 375 rum case

 

[MontanaRifleman]

MontanaRifleman,

Those cases may have been true for older Howa rifles. I can not dispute that. BUT, howa now chambers their rifles in the 375 Ruger which is a RUM case shortened to 2.500 in length and has a very similiar shoulder design as the RUM. Basically its identical to the 375 RUM except that the case is 0.350" shorter. As such, it will generate EXACTLY the same amount of bolt thrust onto the receiver as a full length 375 RUM will. The stress imposed onto the receiver is based on the size of the case head, nothing more or less. The larger the case head, the more bolt thrust because the same amount of PSI is being applied but over a larger area so the total thrust is greater.

I am sure that Howa has fully tested their receiver with the 375 Ruger and proven it plenty capable of this level of bolt thrust. If it will handle this, it will handle the RUMs.

To that same point, the 338 Lapua has a significantly larger case head diameter and area. As such, 65,000 psi in the Lapua will produce dramatically more bolt thrust then a RUM loaded to the same 65,000 psi.

This is why you really have to beef up a receiver and barrel to use a 408 CT class wildcat. Larger case head diameter imposes MUCH higher bolt thrust levels to the receiver even at same chamber pressures.

There is a reason that the 50 BMG is loaded to 55,000 psi. Even though the receivers are huge, if you up pressures to the 65,000 psi level that is common with todays magnums, you will generate a bolt thrust that would stress even the large BMG class receivers.

Its not case length or capacity that determines how it stresses a receiver. Its case head diameter and chamber pressure.

Another example is the 223 Rem. I have studied tests with this little round where loads were driven up to nearly 85,000 psi and the only thing that happened was pierced primer pockets with no receiver damage at all. In the same test, they took a larger diameter case, I believe it was a 300 Win Mag and loaded it to this same pressure range and the bolt lugs were set back to the point the receiver was spoiled. If that level of pressure was put in a Lapua case head diameter, the receiver likely would fail or at least be locked solid.

As far as the Howa to Remington comparision. I like the Howas but they are no where near as easy to work with. Barrels can be a serious pain to break loose. I have had several that I could have stood on my 6 foot breaker bar and still not turned them loose. I certainly would never do that as you can tweak a receiver easily if you force it so in those cases I simply cut the barrels off and bored out the barrel segment left in the receiver. The funny thing, once the shoulder of the barrel had been machined off, the barrel shank often can be turned out by hand???? Go figure. Not sure what those guys do to make some of the barrels so tight but some are amazingly hard to break loose.

The receivers are not that hard to accurize but the bolts are a bit more difficult, just need to make up some custom tooling and fixtures to do it.

now if your just doing a simple barrel replacement and perhaps lapping the lugs and no full accurizing, no problem.

The Rem 700 trigger options are much better all around. magazine box options are also better for the Rem 700. Its also easier to bed a Rem 700 as well. In the end, for a precision rifle build, the Rem 700 is hands down superior but the Howa is a much better receiver and rifle then most give them credit for.

Kirby and Darrin, thanks for education on the bolt thrust, which is new info for me. I am still having trouble understanding how a 375 Ruger will have exactly the same bolt thrust as a 375 RUM just because they have the same bolt face. But for now, I'll take your word on it.

On the 700 vs the Howa, my approach to doing a budget build is getting a good action/stock combination like a Sub MOA Vangurd, Sendero, or Mark V Accumark, etc., and just doing the basic accuraization of trueing the action, lapping the bolts, skim bedding and good to go. If I start replacing bolt's and triggers, etc, I might as well just get the custom. so from this angle, i think the Howa is a better choice with it's one piece bolt, integral recoil lug, ported blot sleeve, m16 style extractor, etc (some will probably debate those features.. oh well) the trigger on my Howa is much easier to tune also. And both my 770's and Howa are tuned very nicely for my purposes and my Senderos are good .5 MOA rifles to 500 yds and last I shot the Howa 7RM it was .3 @ 100. So as where some of the other upgrades might be nice, I am more than happy with the basics, especially in the Howa.

Interesting insight on a smith's perspective of the Howa.

Thanks, Mark

 

[angus-5024]

So then it would be true that the .338 Norma Mag has the Same bolt thrust as the .338 Lapua, therefore it not the best decision to build one on a remington 700 action (or Howa of that matter)? so then the main purpose of the .338 Norma becomes moot, that is being able to use a r700 action. I suppose it still offers a shorter barrel compared to the lapua, RUM and edge.

good thread.

 

[nwolf]

As for the .338 sin. You say there are other cartridges that are the same. Do they also fit the howa action without any modification? This is an honest question as I've never heard of them. If they do then I see why you question its existence. If not, then what's your question?

 

[Fiftydriver]

The 338 Norma Magnum, if loaded with the same bullet to the same pressures as the 338 Lapua magnum will produce nearly exactly the same bolt thrust on the receiver.

I used to build alot of Rem 700s modified to be chambered for the Lapua class chamberings, namely my 7mm Allen Magnum, 300 Allen Xpress, 338 Allen Xpress and 375 Allen Xpress.

I did some testing with a stainless steel Rem 700 with the 300 AX and after 700 rounds down the barrel, most of them being the 240 gr SMK loaded to 3200 fps in a 30" Lilja 1-8 twist barrel. I pulled the barrel and measured the receiver for bolt lug set back into the receiver supports. After 700 rounds, the stainless steel receiver had roughly 7 thou of bolt lug set back. Bolt lift was starting to get tight at around 500 rounds down the barrel and really noticable after that. Nothing that kept the bolt from opening but it did not matter what load I used, bolt lift was stiff, extraction was effortless, pressures moderate.

This prompted me to check for bolt lug set back.

After seeing this, I fitted the same barrel to a Chrome Moly rem 700. Hammered down another 700 rounds and then pulled the barrel to check the bolt lug setback. Less then 2 thou. Bolt lift had remained excellent throughout testing.

The harder chrome moly steel resisted bolt lug set back much better then the stainless steel receiver when using the same load and chambering. More then three times less set back. At this point I decided to use ONLY chrome moly Rem 700s for my Lapua class builds.

A year or so passed and a customer sent me back his 7mm AM that had been built on a chrome moly receiver. It seems he had been loading this rifle up to the limits of the Lapua case with the 160 gr Accubond and was getting north of 3550 fps in a 30" barrel length. After 300 rounds, bolt lift had become very heavy with all shots. Hearing this I told him to stop shooting the rifle and send it back to me for inspection ASAP.

He did, I pulled the barrel and the bolt lugs has set back into the receiver supports by 10 thou!!!!!

Now these loads that had been used were far over what I had recommended. At that time, I had only loaded the 7mm AM up to around 3450 fps max in the Rem 700 based rifles. He took the load development higher and since there were no pressure signs with his loads and the Lapua brass, he figured they were perfectly safe.

This made it clear that the Rem 700 was not a good choice for this class of chambering. If the Lapua class chamberings are loaded to the 65,000 psi range, a properly built Rem 700 Chrome Moly receiver will handle them easily.

The problem lies in the fact that the Lapua case can support dramatically higher chamber pressures then this and when that case strength is combined with a bit of an unexperienced handloader, the receiver is stressed more then it was ever designed to be.

It was also because of the very strong Lapua case that I have done all my load development for my wildcats based on the Lapua case with the Norma Brand of brass which is significantly softer then the Lapua and will loosen primer pockets at nearly identical pressures and the Reminton RUM brass cases, which is in the 65K to 68K psi range. Once those loads were determined in the norma brass, I could then move over to the Lapua brass and get extremely long case life.

Seeing the potential of the Lapua case to handle pressures that were far above the design goals of the Rem 700, I made the decision to stop offering my Lapua class wildcats on that receiver platform and that was the start of the APS Raptor receiver.

In comparision, I have inspected several 338 Edge rifles with well over 1000 rounds down the barrels in both chrome moly and stainless steel and neither had bolt lug set back much more then 2 thou if that.

Hope this puts some perspective on what can happen when the Rem 700 is overloaded with a Lapua class chambering.

 

[angus-5024]

That makes alot of sense, thanks Fiftydriver.