How Stupid is this idea for fire forming?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Troutslayer2, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. Troutslayer2

    Troutslayer2 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so I have several boxes of .280 Remington ammo sitting here. I already learned that they can not just be fed through my .280 Ackley because when fired the primers lift up, and the brass grows at the wrong place causing case head separation on the next firing. I could remove the bullets, dump the powder, remove the primer and load them all up in a way that the bullet is jammed into the lands so when I fire form the case will be held in place by the bullet and I will not get head separation.

    Now, here is the part that I think might be stupid. What if I take my inertia bullet puller to the range and give each factory round enough whacks so that the bullet will be jammed, and then fire them? They are 140 Grain Core-Lokt from Remington. This would save me a whole bunch of time. Basically, do you think that the factory Remington stuff is too hot to jam into the lands? I don't have a die that I could resize the necks with without also removing the primer and by the time I do that I'd be better off finding someone with a .280 and giving them the loaded stuff and just buying some bulk brass. This is my dilemma.
     
  2. 7 loader

    7 loader Well-Known Member

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    No don't do that. The reason is factory ammo is loaded to the max. A over pressure will occur. Bad things happen with this. The bullets in question are not made to go into the lands. Buy some bulk brass. It will be safer.
     

  3. boomtube

    boomtube Well-Known Member

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    You won't be firing those "extended" factory rounds in a standard chamber, the extra room in the AI chamber should easily make it safe enough.

    But, I would feel better if you tried squeezing the bodies with pliers to make them egg shaped enough to make chambering difficult and see if that wouldn't hold the cartridges back enough to let you fire them normally. Maybe do at least a couple that way and see how it goes before you jam the rifling? (The cases WILL be reformed to fit the chamber afterwards so the deforming won't matter.)
     
  4. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if Remington ammo brass is even worth reloading. Some of the stuff I seen once looked to be disposable.
    Almost as bad as that green Chinese crap laying all over my range...

    Not to be hard on that ammo in particular, but seriously, some factory loaded brass is not at all like their 'reloading brass'. An example is Winchester WSSM. Their reloading brass is awesome. But I would not attempt to reload their wssm ammo (all cracked up).
     
  5. Slopeshunter

    Slopeshunter Well-Known Member

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    I don't get it. I never had any issues fireforming 280 factory ammo in my 280ai. What's the issue?
     
  6. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    He described a headspace issue.
    The case heads are not reaching the boltface without a stretch just forward of the webs, because the case is expanding and grabbing the chamber walls beforehand. With this, the primers slam back to the boltface, nearly leaving their pockets.

    Normally the caseheads are within a few thou of the boltface. The reach is small enough that little to no thinning occurs near the webs, and headspace is even better reduced.
    He wishes to jam the bullets to force the caseheads back to the boltface before firing.

    If you don't have the same issue, then it's likely your ammo is different, or your chamber, or your chamber is loaded up with oil(a dangerous condition).
     
  7. TOM H

    TOM H Well-Known Member

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    They set his headspace wrong here how it should be done
    http://www.mansonreamers.com/Instructions/Ackley Gaging.pdf

    I've got 2 chambered 280AI and I can fire factory brass in mine with no problems just like yours I've also got some Nolser 280AI brass.

    One problem with AI not set up right you can never FL size the case and depending on how much excessive headspace there is you may only get acouple firing anyway before the case head separates. If it was me I'd take the rifle back and have it done right or find another gunsmith.
     
  8. onzah

    onzah Well-Known Member

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    +1 on the incorrectly headspaced improved chamber. The whole intent of the improved chambers is to have the ability to shoot factory ammo. They are usually setup to crush fit a factory standard round.
     
  9. ANARCHIST

    ANARCHIST Well-Known Member

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    Back in the day thats all I did with 300H&H brass to feed a pricey 300wby.

    Now the brass is available from Remington Norma and others its not a toss up $12 vs $40 on a box of shells as it was in the 80's.

    Not familiar with the AI however if the OAL length is the same, as stated above just make the body a tad tight as to keep it from going in too far and it should be fine.
     
  10. Troutslayer2

    Troutslayer2 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I pulled them all, and reloaded with a known powder, light charge, and loaded some Sierra Game Kings Very long, way jammed into the lands. I fired them this morning and only had a few primers lift out a tiny bit, nothing like the lift I was having with the factory stuff unjammed. I am going to discard anything suspicious and try to load them up the way I want them. We will see if I have any separation on the next firing.
     
  11. BobbyL

    BobbyL Well-Known Member

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    The way most AI chambers are designed the should be head spaced off of the parent case which will allow you to shoot factory ammo without many issues at all. The problem your having may be more of a brass thickness problem trying to stretch it to far. Where are the cases splitting at?
     
  12. 3006savage

    3006savage Well-Known Member

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    Trout, You are going to have this problem every time you get new brass, even if it is AI brass if the headspacing is too long.

    I would measure the fireformed brass and compare it to AI dimensions to verify the incorrect headspacing. You may even notice the neck is shortened now that you have fireformed using the bullet as a one time headspace. Then I would take the rifle and the fireformed brass to the gunsmith and give him the opportunity to correct it.

    It is not safe to even sell it the way it is since any future owners could have case failures.

    Are you are sure that you dont have a 30 Gibbs instead of AI?
     
  13. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    I think he'll be fine provided he takes steps to reduce the headspace issue.
    I'm sure he's not the only shooter who's run across this.. It might be the chamber/AI version(there is more than one), or that lot of Rem ammo -with those particular bullets. Who knows.

    Anyway, with new brass he can jam, or form a false shoulder with a 30cal expander and then neck sized ~50thou short.
     
  14. MrBallistic

    MrBallistic New Member

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    Mikecr has the best idea. Taper expand out to a larger caliber, then set the sizing die off the shellholder a turn or two and size (turn down a little and check) just enough till the bolt closes with light resistance. This will keep the primers flush and give the best case life. You should be able to (temporarily) install the tapered expander in a size die any time you need to make cases, then replace with standard one during reloading. Additionally, P.O. chambered his improved cartridges, not to headspace on a factory round, but rather to "crush" fit at the neck/shoulder junction. The result would be that the factory cartridge would "blow out" the shoulder while the head remained against the bolt face. Fire forming can be an effective tool, but with so many versions of his improved exist today you really need to find a knowledgeable gunsmith to set these up correctly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010