How Do You Get A Low "ES" Velocity Number ??

[Steve Shelp]

Shawn,
Your clarification makes sense. I've read a lot of your posts and your normally right on point. Thanks for the clarification.

The only thing that I have had different results with from your list is with lubing the inside of the neck. I agree it gives you less variation of seating pressure which should give you better shot to shot variations. This was tested with a pressure sensor gauge on a homemade test jig. But in the end the loss of neck tension usually gave vertical that couldn't be tuned out with increased charge wgt or increased seating depth. The seating depth got to be so light that decreasing bushing diameter didn't help and if you tried to seat the bullets out further they were simply pushed back into the case.
So, I stopped cleaning the inside of the necks really good with chemicals and vertical went away. I now take a dry worn out bore brush and one swipe in and out of the neck and that is it. I use to clean them to bare brass.

I agree with your switching of primers. My 338 Yogi was a great example of that. Everyone told me, with that much powder you needed magnum primers to make sure you ignited the powder. I finally went out on a limb after getting vertical in my groups all the time and tried std Fed 210s and it helped the vertical a lot after bumping the load back up. Big difference. Never had any ignition problems either. Even with 95-100gr of slow burning powders.

Steve

 

[Broz]

Could someone give some details on their method of graphiting the necks when and how they do it. I do it, but want to be sure I am not missing something here.

Thanks!

Jeff

 

[wilbur300wsm]

powder powder powder. powder has the biggest effect on es. normal and exotic brass prep will be a factor, it's a good thing to do to help with lowering es. extremely clean necks will NOT give consistant bullet release. my experiance with primers is to use the primers on the colder side, you get more of a progressive ignition than a flash ignition. uniform primer pockets and uniform flash holes will give consistant ignition and help to cure flyers and greater es. a case that is closer to being full will obviously burn from one end to the other, thats what you want. one with more air space will tend to burn across the top of the powder charge. thats what you don't want. nothing was said about the way the powder is measured. a lot of us are slowly losing our eyesight, so is the lines on you old reliable beam scale really perfectly in line? inconsistant powder charge will definately have an effect on es. my suggestion is a good quality digital scale. i know on stick powder like 4064,4350, 4831, two granuals will change you charge .1 of a grain. RL 15, 5 granuals will change you charge .1 of a grain. if you are using a digital scale , test it to see how many granuals it takes to change the charge. the more consistant you can be the better. hope this helps and good luck.

 

[daveyj]

My notes on low ES, in order.

1. Sort bullets by baring surface.
2. Sort bullets by forward baring surface to base.
3. Get consistant case volume, I do this by taking once fired cases, trimmed to length, prepped and weigh them.
4. Use a bushing sizing die with the right neck tension.
5. Graphite powder the inside of the neck of the case.
6. After seating the bullet set all bullets to the same length based on the OAL from the forward baring surface to the base of the case. This will give you more consistant effective case volume and jump to the lands.
7. Experiment with load variables, powders and primer combos. Hogden Extreame powder seem to be better about this. Certain primer powder combos also seem to work better together.
8. If you get in the low teens and or single digits be happy don't strive for a goal that makes no practical difference. At 10-15 fps ES most people will never see a difference in the performance vs. 7 or 8 fps ES.
9. Your shooting an Edge - H1000, CCI 250, 300 SMK's and follow the above you'll be a happy guy.

to quote carlock, case prep is key. prep all your cases, trim if need be, clear flash hole, weigh and sort, 3/10th of a grain is best if you can afford it, just buy more brass and split it into wt classes. You will have to throw a few cases away but if you have enough sorting them should do the trick. neck tension which he also mentioned is critical. Fill your case if you can. if you can avg 10 or less be happy.

 

[Eaglet]

Could someone give some details on their method of graphiting the necks when and how they do it. I do it, but want to be sure I am not missing something here.

Thanks!

Jeff

I do this also. Like Broz, I'm interested to know how others do it.

 

[wilbur300wsm]

read each post. see what poeple are doing, everyone has their own experiance with what they think works to lower es. do what you think will work and filter out the rest.

 

[lever-hed]

I would not worry about ES too much. Pick yor battles..

but if I had to be constructive, measure each charge to the exactly, BTO and seat depth. but those are natually consistent anyway, right?

 

[LRHWAL]

I am by no means an expert, but have seen many argue that variances in the case head and extractor groove can account for much of weight inconsistency of cases. Measuring volume of fire-formed cases may be more useful. I've seen MysticPlayer mention that he measures volume with a fine ball powder - nice idea and quicker and less messy than using water.

That said I only sort by neck wall thickness and unless something is amiss with the load (or neck tension!) achieve SD's of 12 and below and if I've done my bit often 5 or thereabouts.

I started the thread on the case neck issue as it still interests me. I'd also like to hear how others do it. I've tried it with some success, but I'm not sure it helped anything.

I used the Redding neck lube kit - the little jar with the ceramic balls and the dry neck lube.
I simply dipped them in and loaded like that.

So, Broz, Eaglet that's my technique. Seemed okay, but not sure it was better. More testing required.

How are you guys doing it?

WL

 

[Eaglet]

LRHWAL,

I also use the Imperial Dry Neck Lube.

My already prepped brass after fired goes into my RCBS heavy duty decapping die, this step only removes the primer, then it goes into the tumbler until they're clean inside and out. After that I finish cleaning the primer pocket and make sure there is no media left inside the case. Once the cases are clean I deep them into the dry neck lube, only neck deep, rotate a bit and wipe off the dry lube from the outside of the neck, lube the whole outside with Imperial sizing die wax and the case is re-sized to where the shoulders are just pushed in a couple of thousands. Now they're ready for primer powder and bullets. This setup has worked for me pretty good giving me better consistency. It has also helped with obtaining better concentricity.