Help Needed with LB3.0 and .338 Bergers

Best way for this stuff to sink in is to wrestle with it for a while - mentally.

I don't have a complete understanding of Coriolis drift. I started out with the goal to fully understand it. But I gave up short of conquering that complete understanding due to mental fatigue & researcher's fatigue, once I was satisfied I knew enough to properly operate and obtain corrective drift dope with LB3.
 
I don't believe the bullet is gaining or loosing velocity in an east or west shot it that the target, which is fixed to the ground, is moving closer or farther away.


Not sure if the illustration is exactly correct, but what happens to commercial flight times that go east or go west across the country, for example? I got back from Kauai a couple of months ago flying out of Seattle. Though certainly far from directly E/W, the eastbound flight is always shorter (bullet hits higher) because the earth is rotating East to West, as view from space. Same w/ flights I've been on say from Seattle to Minnapolis--a pretty much straight shot E/W.
 
Sent a pm to Bryan Litz asking him to join this thread and explain to us how there is not a vertical component to coriolis when shooting N/S. His book states that, but doesn't tell why. Hopefully, he'll chime in here...
 
Good call jmden!! I found this youtube on coriolis. YouTube - Visualization of the Coriolis and centrifugal forces


Is that pixie dust?? Maybe we need some of that to understand this!!:D:rolleyes: Too funny. I don't know how many of these illustrations I've watched over the years and yet there are components of this that I just have not nailed down. At this point, I'm pretty much where phorwath is--the forces are there and I need to understand them enough to shoot 'straight'---if my rifle and I are up to the task.
 
So I guess in one case you need to shoot quick before the target gets away, but in the other case wait for the closer shot...:D:D

Jeff

Hah! Good one! :D I was slow catching the drift.


I know... sick attempt at humor on my part... :rolleyes:
 
Ah! So that's why a rocket can't go straight to the moon!

And why the tower of babble was such an ignorant idea.:)

And why when Dad said "do you catch my drift" he was always facing East or West.

:D:D
 
I was really trying to avoid this thread but can't ignore a direct invite :)

First, here's some material I've written on the the coriolis effect:
Spin and Coriolis Drift

Handwritten examples are linked at the bottom that will allow you to calculate both horizontal and vertical effects. It's the exact math used in ballistics programs.

Unfortunately the above text doesn't directly address the 'why' of the effect.

First let's consider the vertical component because it's the easiest.

Facts about the vertical component of coriolis:
It causes you to hit high when shooting east.
It causes you to hit low when shooting west.
The closer you are to the equator, the stronger the effect is.
At the poles, there is no effect (because there is no east or west).

So, why do you hit high when firing east?

Think about something we're all familiar with; a sunrise. When you're looking at a sunrise, it looks like the sun is rising out of the ground. However, as we all learned in grade school, the sun is (relatively) stationary, and it's the earths rotation that makes it look like the sun is 'rising'. With this understanding, we can revise the description of a sunrise to be: a sunrise is when the horizen 'falls down'. This is an oversimplification, but will serve the purpose of understanding intuitively how the coriolis affect works.

Now that you're envisioning the horizon falling down when you face east (this happens all day long by the way, not just in the morning:), imagine your target is on the horizon and you're aiming at it. The bullet starts out flying straight for the aim point, but what you don't know is that the target is actually a moving target. As the bullet flies, the target is falling down with the horizon (in an inertial frame, which manifests itself as an apparent alteration in gravity). So your bullet strikes the target high because the apparent affect of gravity was weakened, but it's actually because the target was falling down with the eastern horizon.

If the above makes sense to you, then the rest will follow easily.

Shooting west has the opposite affect. Another way to say the sun sets in the west is to say the western horizon rises. Again this happens all day long. If you have a target on the western horizon, it will 'rise' while your bullet's flying to it, and the bullet will strike low. To an observer, it looks like gravity is stronger, but it's actually because the western horizon is moving.

When you shoot north or south, there is no vertical deflection because the northern and southern horizon are fixed. There are no inertial reference points that rise and set in the north and south, in other words, the northern and southern horizon's are neither rising or falling. So you can count on your bullet finding the vertical center of it's target.

The earth is fattest at it's equator. A consequence of this is that the surface of the earth at the equator is moving faster (in the inertial frame) than on a point away from the equator. (think of the equator as the tread of the tire, and the poles as the hub). Since the surface of the earth at the equator is moving the fastest, and your target is attached to it, the vertical coriolis effect is at a maximum there.

That about covers vertical.

Horizontal is much harder.

Imagine you're standing on the equator facing north. Remember that the land you're standing on is moving east faster than the land you're looking out over. If you could put your 'inertial glasses' on, you would see the land to the north drifting west, and drifting faster in the distance. So when you pick a point to shoot at, without your 'inertial glasses' it looks stationary, but the bullet will hit a point to the east of the target (to the right) because the land is 'drifting' west.

Now if you're standing in Canada looking south, you're standing on slow moving ground compared to what you see to the south of you. In this case, the inertial glasses would show the landscape drifting to the east (because it's moving east faster than you are). Fire in that direction, and the bullet will strike to the west of your aim point (which is still to the right).

The cause of horizontal coriolis drift when firing east and west is much harder to visualize (even with the 'inertial glasses'), but it works the same way. Remember that you're on the northern hemisphere of a rotating sphere, and look east (the direction you're moving). Look at the landscape in relation to the stars behind it. The stars should reveal that the landscape is moving to the left (in the northern hemisphere). Now turn around and face west. The stars should still reveal that the landscape is drifting to the left. Both of these scenarios will result in a bullet striking to the right of the aimpoint. The landscape appears to move that way because it's attached to a rotating sphere. As it turns out, the bullet will strike to the right by the same amount as the north and south shots as it does for east/west shots.

In the southern hemisphere, the landscape appears to move to the right (compared to an inertial reference) so the bullet appears to drift to the left.

I'm sure an academic professor would have my *** for the above description, but I think it serves to illustrate the coriolis effect for our purposes.

-Bryan
 
I was really trying to avoid this thread but can't ignore a direct invite :)

The cause of horizontal coriolis drift when firing east and west is much harder to visualize (even with the 'inertial glasses'), but it works the same way. Remember that you're on the northern hemisphere of a rotating sphere, and look east (the direction you're moving). Look at the landscape in relation to the stars behind it. The stars should reveal that the landscape is moving to the left (in the northern hemisphere). Now turn around and face west. The stars should still reveal that the landscape is drifting to the left. Both of these scenarios will result in a bullet striking to the right of the aimpoint. The landscape appears to move that way because it's attached to a rotating sphere. As it turns out, the bullet will strike to the right by the same amount as the north and south shots as it does for east/west shots.

I'm sure an academic professor would have my *** for the above description, but I think it serves to illustrate the coriolis effect for our purposes.

-Bryan

Your explanation is about as good as I've read from a layman's perspective.

But I agree. The due east and due west direction-of-fire and that shifting, or relocation, of the target relative to the line of flight of the bullet is still a bugger to grasp. I think I was finally able to visualize it by pretending I had a globe of the earth with lat/long lines scribed onto it. Then, visualizing that globe with the non-parallel longitude lines rotating away - looking easterly, and then rotating inbound - as in looking westerly. When I get back to the house I'll have to find a basketball, rotate it in both directions and again analyze these east/west directions of fire a bit more.

Thank goodness we don't have to fully grasp the due east and due west direction-of-fire coriolis-caused surface of earth (target) shift/relocation in order to obtain corrective coriolis dope!

Thanks for your helpful efforts.
 
I

Unfortunately the above text doesn't directly address the 'why' of the effect.

-Bryan


Thanks, Bryan for trying to help us understand this. I think if I read it a few more times, it'll start to sink in as I think your example, professor issues aside:rolleyes:, helps grasp the situation.

Hmmm...I see we haven't heard from Broz since Bryan posted... He must be either out on the town, just wants to compeletely ignore that Coriolis exists by now :D:D, or his brain is about ready to start smoking....:D:D:D. I know mine is!
 
Thanks Bryan! Hopefully you didn't loose to many gray cells trying to explain this to us, I know there isn't much to work with here :D:D
I'll have to print it out and read it a few times, once my brain cools of a little.
 
So I guess in one case you need to shoot quick before the target gets away, but in the other case wait for the closer shot...:D:D

Sorry, J/K and injecting a bit of humor. I need it..:)

Jeff


Broz, I didn't know you had that much sense of humor? :D
 
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