good PRECISION reloading book?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by RDM416, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    I know this has probably been discussed before. I did a quick search and found lots of stuff on general or beginning practices but not really anything on advanced techniques.

    I am not a novice at reloading as I have been doing it for 25+ years. But I am a novice at true precision reloading. As I am beginning to stretch my shooting out to 1000+ yards, I know I need to be more precise in my loading.

    What I have not been able to find is a book that has all those tricks that BR and other competition guys use to make sure their ammo is the best it can possibly be. A few days ago I saw a post about seating bullets with multiple short strokes and rotating the case in the process. The reason for this over just seating a bullet with a single stroke is obvious, I had just never heard of it before. My question is, how many other little tricks like this do precision loaders use that like that one I have never heard of?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    Thanks in advance for any help pointing me in the right direction guys!
     
  2. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

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    I think that what you'd find is, rather than any kind of consensus, only one guy's opinion. One guy who happened to be astute enough to get his words into print.

    This guy---> http://www.6mmbr.com/schatz1000.html Sort of re-wrote some of the rules to suit himself and ended up setting a world record. He admittedly does not neck turn brass, and he doesn't uniform primer pockets!

    Most of the body of knowledge in competition handloading is just handed from one guy to the next, and assumed to be gospel. As it is said, you can tell a lie often enough and folks will begin to believe it.

    It's a rare person who ever gets the time and material to really put some of the shop worn edicts of precision handloading to the test. Some guys (like myself) do little microcosmical tests here and there, and draw our own conclusions and sometimes share the results. But such tests aren't really scientific, and generally there are at least a dozen angles from which a detractor can come to "tear your little test a new one." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

    But still, in the end, there are two types of guys: Those who test ideas, and those who believe what "that guy said."

    There is wisdom to both approaches, actually. We don't want to spend too much time re-inventing the wheel, but on the other hand, nothing new will ever be learned if someone (like the afformentioned Richard Schatz, see the link above) doesn't challenge conventional wisdom.

    Just because G. David himself does it one way that doesn't mean that some guy won't come along and do it another way--and win.

    So what I'm saying is that there probably are books out there which cater to long range precision accuracy. Most will have more to do with the rifle, the rest, and shooting technique than they will with handloading. But there will be at least a chapter or two dedicated to the author's way of doing things.

    I agree with Schatz that neck turning brass simply means that you've bought the wrong batch of brass (my paraphrase). I also agree with him that uniforming primer pockets should be superfluous in a quality piece of brass--which, if you're serious, is what you should be using in the first place...

    If you can get the time, test these ideas on your own. See what works and what doesn't.

    I wonder how many neck turners and primer pocket uniformers have been sold to schmoes like me over the years because none of us ever thought to question conventional wisdom? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Dan
     

  3. Brown Dog

    Brown Dog Writers Guild

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  4. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]

    I wonder how many neck turners and primer pocket uniformers have been sold to schmoes like me over the years because none of us ever thought to question conventional wisdom? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Dan

    [/ QUOTE ]

    guess I'm a schmoe too, but may be a coincidence b/c ever since I started turning and uniforming, I started getting more one holers for 3-5 shots. Who knows.
     
  5. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Green 788 and Brown Dog.

    I will check out the link 788 suggested and order the book Brown Dog reccomends......

    I am definatly one of the experimenter types, but I just hate it when I make some great discovery of something that works...............then find out that everyone who knows anything has already been doing that forever /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
     
  6. flht01

    flht01 New Member

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    I found the book "Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook" by Fred Sinclair and Bill Gravatt to be a good, practical approach for more accurate loads. Check the Sinclair site for availability.
     
  7. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    RDM416, I gotta say something about your comment below:

    "A few days ago I saw a post about seating bullets with multiple short strokes and rotating the case in the process. The reason for this over just seating a bullet with a single stroke is obvious, I had just never heard of it before. My question is, how many other little tricks like this do precision loaders use that like that one I have never heard of??"

    The above seating process is not a little (nor big) trick. Bullets seat themselves pretty much aligned with the case neck axis. If the neck is bent off axis from the case body, the bullet will seat crooked regardless of how it's pushed in the neck.

    If your resized cases have straight necks, you can almost use a ball peen hammer to seat bullets and they'll be very straight. Or at least a conventional seating die. Bullets cannot be seated straight in a case with a bent neck. Expander balls bend case necks.

    Looking at the track record of the two girls who have won the 1000-yard individual matches at the nationals 5 times each (one with scope the other with aperture sights), these gals are probably shooting the most accurate 6.5x284 rifles on this planet. The guy who makes their rifles and loads their ammo is a dad to the younger one shooting scope and husband to the other one shooting irons. He full-length resizes the cases but doesn't use expander balls. The die's neck is opened up just enough to full-length size the cases and set the shoulder back a couple thousandths. The case necks are very straight. He, his wife and daughter have been winning matches and setting records for years. There are no tricks to his reloading processes; plain, simple use of good components. And those rifles will probably shoot all day long inside 5 to 6 inches at 1000 yards. Oh, his other daughter won the world long range championships a year or two ago.
     
  8. sambo3006

    sambo3006 Well-Known Member

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    Bart,
    Can you take the expander ball out of a conventional sizing die and still be able to seat bullets without shaving jacket, or does this need to be a special die (I use only Redding and RCBS)? How about chamfering the case mouth. Is this neccessary? Thanks, Sam
     
  9. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Bart B,

    Thanks for your reply. In a way, you made my point for me. From your perspective (and I have no reason to doubt you are correct) the bullet seating "trick" I mentioned is of little or no use. However, not using an expander ball is also a new "trick" I have just recently learned from another post as well. Obviously I can't tell a usefull "trick" from one that is not /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    That is why an authoritative well researched book on precision reloading would be helpfull. A following post asked about bullet shaving problems if an expander ball is not used, I would also think that pressures could rise from a bullet seated with much greater neck tension, etc. I'm not knocking not using an expander ball, just using that as an example of how a well written book would deal with the entire issue, by anticipating and answering those and other potential questions. The next time I load, I will remove the expander ball and see what happens, so in this case I will learn the answer to the rest of the questions by experimenting. Although it is nice to just be told all the answers, I usually remember the ones I had to figure out for myself best /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  10. Aussie

    Aussie Well-Known Member

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    I have tried removing the expander ball from a Lee FLS die and found I couldn't seat bullets without ruining the case neck . This was a Hornet so thin brass .
    My suggestion would be to use a Redding body die for cases that require the shoulder bumped . It has no facility to resize the neck or remove the spent primer . For neck sizing try a cheap but effective Lee collet neck sizing die which uses a mandrel and not an expander ball . Most who have tried them like them for precision loads .
     
  11. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

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    Read Bart's comments in this thread...

    Lapping info

    Basically, if you remove the expander ball and then lap the neck channel of the sizing die to the correct size, all should be well with the seating. I haven't tried this yet, but Bart has inspired me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Dan
     
  12. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    My suggestion would be to use a Redding body die for cases that require the shoulder bumped . It has no facility to resize the neck or remove the spent primer . For neck sizing try a cheap but effective Lee collet neck sizing die which uses a mandrel and not an expander ball . Most who have tried them like them for precision loads .


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yep, what he said!

    The "seating in bites" tip isn't to deal with necks with runout at all, but bullet ogives that enter the seating plug with runout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    The lee FL die, as you notticed brings the neck to waaaay under dimension, something like .020" for most calibers, but there are some dies on the market that allow use without the expander, ive got some redding, and forester that do... but they are more expensive than the lee colet die, and a redding body die... and they are still dependant on case neck thickness for a specific neck tension.