Giving out Load Advice caution!

[Randy Tidwell]

First, the following is not intended as an attack on anyone either stated or implied. My only intention is to respectfully suggest to all posters to think about the ramifications of what they are posting.

In a recent post, there was load data that was shared to the OP that was considerably hotter than accepted/published loads. I think I put a permanent crease in the seat of my office chair. I took the time this morning and looked thru a number of both new and old manuals for a load that hot, couldn't find it listed anywhere. I shoot an improved version of that round and don't even load it that hot.

Here are my thoughts; we should all be very careful sharing loads that are not published by the manufactures for a number of reasons.

You never know the condition of the rifle that the load might find its way into.

You don't know the experience of the individual that might try it.

Individual components i.e. cases, primers and bullets all have an effect on pressure. Simple change of a bullet or primer on a hot load could be devastating.

Back in the day (I'm dating myself now), we played with a lot of crazy loads trying to find that sweet spot. I won't even hint on this open forum what we were doing because someone might decide to try it themselves without the foundation and knowledge to do it correctly. Many shooters wanted me to share what we were doing. Always told them I could not because of the liability was something that I was not willing to risk. I even got accused of being a jerk for not sharing, wasn't being a jerk, just being safe.

Thankfully, with the current wide variety of components available to us today, there is no need to do that anymore. Well, I still do it for my BR rigs

In the 70's and early 80's, I had the privilege of managing a small chain of hunting and fishing stores (3 stores) in California. It was store policy that no employee was allowed to quote load data. If a customer wanted load information, the employee was required to grab a published load manual, look it up and show the customer. This removed any and all liability to the company, and it was just plan safe. Any deviation from that were grounds for immediate dismissal.

There was a well know shop in So Cal that was put out of business after an employee gave a customer bad loading advice. The resulting law suit after the gun blew up (Super Blackhawk) and the shooter badly injured forced the store to close the doors, sad.

So again, this is NOT an attack. Only respectfully suggesting caution when giving advice or sharing load data.

First and foremost, we don't want to see anyone get hurt. Second, in today's crazy sue happy world, none of us need to expose ourselves to the possible liability. Bad advice could even drag LRH into a lawsuit. Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim. Put the possibility of getting drug into one that would cost a lot of money to defend is there.

Everyone be well and safe.

PS. It is sad that in today's world we need to think "can I get sued for this?"

 

[cohunt]

No offense, can you provide any documentation that the "well known store in cali" was shut down from a reloading lawsuit? Or was it just rumors? Never heard of anyone getting sued for reloading data, especially an online forum or member. People should think twice about reloading over book loads, but we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago.
Ultimately the person reloading holds the responsibility of their own safety
The real problem is the "Instant gratification attitude " of the forum community in general-- when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more)
If you live your life in fear of possible lawsuits, youd never be able to do anything or go anywhere

 

[fiftybmg]

I came across reloading information on this forum that looked a bit odd, as I own that caliber, I reload for it, and it's a common caliber at my shooting club where chrony data is recorded per shooter per shoot.

I double-checked with reloaders on my local forum, and everyone who responded agreed that it was not something they would be prepared to risk their body parts with.

One member from Texas posted that his local range has a hole in the roof above the shooting position. It was left unfixed, with a sign below it pointing up, warning people what happens when they do dumb things.

There are people who will not follow established guidelines, because they believe they know better. But reloading is not about superior logic, it's about safety first.

If it's not written in the powder manufacturer's manual, it's not proven to be safe.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

The shop was the "The Grant Boys" Anaheim CA. It was approx 1978 or 79 if my old memory is correct. Not sure if we can find any documentation.

The Grant Boys was one of our main comp at the time, we were all shocked when we heard what happened.

The loading advice was absurd at best and yes it is the responsibility of the person reloading, none the less we should all be aware.

And you are correct, I have never heard of someone getting sued over loading data, but I have too much to loose to take the chance. And loosing such a lawsuit is not likely, but it is still expensive to defend.

And after dealing with a couple of low life lawyers, I would not put anything past them.

The above was just a caution, nothing more.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

Cohunt, no offense taken. Only taken as a respectful conversation.

 

[dok7mm]

Very good statement. Reloaders, both newbies and old hands, should take this seriously. People are inclined to take short cuts, rather than work up a load to fit their rifle.

 

[fiftybmg]

... when someone lists a load, you can use the load data as a suggestion and work up to it (just like all the reloading books say-- but people dont read instructions or books any more) ...

Working up a load is generally understood to be in the context of the max velocity in the manual.

It's not in the context of random numbers posted on the internet.

How do you proceed to work up to a load that is 20% beyond the max in the manual ? Do you pull the trigger, and if nothing blows up consider it safe ? How can anyone recommend such a thing ?

No reloader has the tools to measure chamber pressure. We don't need to, because the powder manufacturer has spent millions on R&D, and provided us with load data. That data incorporates the safe chamber pressure limit expressed as a maximum velocity.

Everyone is entitled to do as they wish in private.

Posting unsafe data on a public forum is irresponsible, and it should be avoided because of common sense, not because of a lawsuit.

...we need to remember that book loads are mild today compared to 30+years ago ....

I don't see any published load data to indicate this is true. What we do have is more recent additions to the powder line-ups that in some cases offer velocity improvements, but the pressure limits are still the same.

Rifles are not made any stronger today than they were made 120 years ago. The same steel is still being used, except the designs are simplified to save manufacturing costs.

 

[L.Sherm]

It's exactly why I dont publish loads on open forum. You see it all the time people wanting " PET" loads.
One person's pet load could be another's disaster.

 

[moosekiller99]

Too many aquarium cleaner drinkers out there, I guess. I'm blaming Trump if it happens.

 

[cohunt]

Cohunt, no offense taken. Only taken as a respectful conversation.

none taken-- hopefully you see no disrespect from my side either--I know Grant boys, stockade, turner's, fowler gun room, etc very well -- are you referring to the "Grant boys" in Anaheim in the court case of "David Patrick Willis vs USA" of 1974 where David purchased 11 guns from the Anaheim Grant boys store within 1 year and he was a convicted felon? or the Costa Mesa Grant boys store that opened in 1949 (originally "Grants war surplus"), and closed 66 years later because the owners decided that it "was time to retire to go hunting and fishing", and "internet sales were hurting business"?



as far as some of the comments by 50bmg-- I have printed reloading manuals from 35+ years ago that show "hot loads" compared to todays manuals with the same powders

if you see a load posted on the web, you should cross reference all reloading book data ( bullet, powder, other manu) from recent times and past years to see if you feel it will be safe to work up to, watch for pressure signs (they tell you how to do that in reloading manuals) and then commence the "work up process" until you feel comfortable with a load for your individual rifle (I'm sure you know this though)--heck they even have these really cool computer programs and apps that give you "probable" chamber pressures by using known data inputs--- and if you so desired you actually could test a chamber pressure using NDT equipment (like pressure trace) if you really wanted to ( they rent and sell this equipment -- but most would never go to these lengths --though some "wildcat" guys will do this if they intend to sell their design, to lessen the possibility of lawsuits)

heck how do you think "wild cat" guys ever came up with a load if there is no printed load data? man would we be hurting if no one ever experimented


lots of times guys will ask for "pet loads" and not ask for the details-- I have a "pet load" for my 6.8spc that would make you shudder, yet I actually know a smith that used a pressure trace to test the chamber pressure and its just fine (at the top but still safe) -- it uses a "non- common bullet,powder and OAL in a certain chamber design" and if you dont have all the pertinent data it could very well be dangerous in your rifle

 

[codyadams]

Good topic. Anytime I post data, I add all the details and also add in the generic warning that this is my data for my rifle, yours may vary, work up to it, etc. What people do with it is on them.

A specific instance of loads being diluted in recent times - look at an old manual for data on the 7mm rem mag, then look at new data, with same or similar bullets, and same powder. A lot of new data essentially puts the 7mm rem mag at the same or very similar performance level as industry standard for a 7mm-08 when it was commercialized, which is simply not the case. Often times if you look, they are listing a "max load" with 52,000 PSI or less, in a 60,000 PSI cartridge, where as older data shows much higher velocity, and pressures around 59k. Now, the new powders are all listed right at or near 60,000 PSI, because they want to show how much "better" these new powders are. Not sure of other cartridges, but I know specifically the 7mm rem mag has been picked on. You just have to read into the data and pick out what is useful.

 

[fiftybmg]

Confirmed.

The oldest I have is the Lee manual for Hodgdon powders from 1993.

The pressure is in CUP.

It shows 2949 fps with 175 grainers using H1000 in a 7 RM at 55000 CUP.

The new Hodgdon data says the max load with H1000 is 2692 fps at 50400 CUP.

For the cartridge I was talking about in my original post on this thread, the new load data from Hodgdon shows 3 fps higher.

 

[RevJim]

Hey Randy!- Love that "Shooter's Serenity prayer"! ha

 

[Zen Archery]

Anyone using GUN POWDER should realize the vitality of what they are doing. If not, here's your Darwin Award.