give up on the custom 223 wssm now what

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by okduckin, May 23, 2007.

  1. okduckin

    okduckin Member

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    i had a custom 700sa 223 wssm built last year and it shots great and hits hard out of a 22 in barrel . the main reason for the round choice was the short barrel performace.but the brass is giving me lots of trouble and i have had my fill!! i love shotting the heavy 22 bullets but not a big fan if long barrels. was reading on the 22-243 but the were some long barrels metioned .what could i expect out of a 22 in barrel in either the 22-243 or the 22-250 ai i could see 24 maybe but those 26-28 there is no way.any input would be nice or even if some knows how to fix the wssm brass would save me alot of cash cause it s here and paid for also thought about a 243ai and the 75s but like the heavy 22s .thanks donovan ps hello all!
     
  2. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Look no farther than the 22 dasher. Its just a 22 br improved and in a 24 inch tube will drive 80's between 3200 fps and 3300 fps. Brass is second to none and accuracy is benchrest standards.
     

  3. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    Reed has an great choice with the Dasher , if their is enough shank on you barrel you could have it cut off and rechambered but that may cut down on your velocity to much for you liking.

    I think that the whole new short mag and super short mag craze and the claims that they do "way better" in a short barrel are complete B.S. , the barrel length that a case calls for in related to powder burned and the actual amout of powder not the case desgine. You have to look at the powder to bore ratio. The 223 WSSM from what I understand is about the same powder capacity as the 243 Winchester and if you built a 22-243 and a 223WSSM on the same barrel length and use powders close to the same burn rate with heavy bullets the differance between the two will be insignificant to the point that the barrels would likely have a differance in speed.
    The 22-250 in getting close to the point of "over bore capacity" and where you go from their like ackly improoving and the 22-243 up to the 22-06 will take so much more powder to gain little speed without going to a very long barrel , you run into a "point of diminishing returns" meening that you have to add so much powder for such little speed increase that you'll burn you barrel out before a good load is developed.
     
  4. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    You said the brass is giving you trouble.
    What trouble?
     
  5. okduckin

    okduckin Member

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    im not and expert but i would call it thick and springy. hard to close bolts and thick necks can size 100 cases the same everytime and 20-25 wont chamber after im done.i have some buddys who got me started have are much more experinced than me come over and it gives them fits also .
     
  6. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Not sure, but sounds like you are not bumping the shoulder back. This is a hot cartridge and it will push some brass.

    If this brass has been fired 3-5x it will keep moving forward to the chamber dimensions and eventually grow past the shoulder of the chamber.

    Take one of hard to chamber cases, buy a stoney point comparator for measuring the shoulder and mike that case and compare it against a case that will chamber freely. My bet is you will find around .002 difference with the hard to chamber case being moved more forward.

    NOTE: If you ever have a barrel chambered have the gunsmith make you a "bump guage" to measure your cases. Cost is about $15-20.

    Measure all your hard cases to confirm and then set aside.

    Take one hard case, lube and work die down 1/16 turn at a time until you can measure .001 setback from original dimension. Try to chamber. Ideally without firing pin in the bolt, that way you get an accurate feel. You might find you are as far out as .002 needed to chamber if they are really tight now.

    As for thick necks, that makes no sense. Most factory cases are around .013-.016 max in thickness. You would normally have at least another .004 in neck diameter for most factory chambers.

    If the case length grows too long it will be hard to chamber and feel like a tight neck. Another thing to check.

    BH
     
  7. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    The WSSM is way thicker than normal cartridges(.019-.021"). No doubt the result of forming from WSM brass.
    It isn't for competitive level shooting/reloading, but instead single use varmint hunting.

    It has potential, but could be tuff without neck turning and use in an appropriate chamber.
    Anneal, bump, use moderate loads.
     
  8. dwm

    dwm Well-Known Member

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    I have a 25 WSSM and your right the the necks are real thick. If your dies have an expander ball for sizing the neck, it can be a real challenge to pull the ball through that thick brass.

    I turn the 25 WSSM necks down to around 0.012/0.013 and use the Redding bushing style dies (no expander ball) and have no problems at all with the brass.

    One more thing, I don't size the whole neck. Leave about 1/4 of the neck unsized to hold the case in the center of the chamber.
     
  9. rotorhead

    rotorhead Well-Known Member

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    Donovan , I'm not absolutly sure about the 223 but I have loaded the 25wssm and it was horable for the same reasons. Another problem that I had was bullet tension some would be hard to press in an others weren't as hard.I found if I annealed new brass it work much better it took the spring out of it and solved the tension problems. I'm not a fan of all this short crud put you have already put the money into it so I would give it one more try annealing the brass and weighing it as well. I do not like win brass because of the emence amout of work it takes to get it right but in this case you have no choice.buy a couple hundered and you'll end up with about half in decent cases maybe a little better. I hope this helps.
    Rh
     
  10. okduckin

    okduckin Member

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    ok , if i give up on the wssm. i have narrowed it down to the 243ai or the 22-250 ai witch do you all like and why want to shoot the heavier bullets in 22 and the lighter in 243 . around 75 to 85 grian at about 3500 is what im looking for and ease of reloading.and no longer than 24in barrel. donovan
     
  11. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    I personaly feel that your gonna need at least a 26" barel to get all the good out of a fast twist 22-250 Ai and heavy pills so I would rule that one out. Now the 243 Ai is a great choice especialy if you shoot the mid weight pills so you can run faster powder and make use of the shorter barrel.
    I'm not sure how far your shooting or what your shooting at but a 75gr V-max bullet run out at 3600+fps will makem a hell of a hole a pretty good ways out their. I've seen some great results from guys shooting 55gr V-max and Ballistic tips out of 22-250 in the 3600fps range out to 500yds , now seeing that the 55gr Ballistic tip in .243 cal has a higher BC and can be run out of a 24" barrel at 4100fps easly I'me guessing that should be good for atleast another 150-200yds on varmints. And you should be able to get close to 3200fps with the 80-90gr hunting bullets and those should cleanly take deer out to 400yds.

    So my vote goes to the 243Ai. if those are your two rounds your stuck on.
    what is it your gonna want this gun to do? deer at 400yds ? praire dogs at 1000yds? Max range of 300yds for deer and coyotes? Or just punching paper
     
  12. Aussie

    Aussie Well-Known Member

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    3500 should be quite achievable with the 75gn V Max in .243 AI . I can get close to 3700 in a 26 inch barrel . Suggest you try Varget .
    Might want to look at Reloder 19 or H4350 for 80gns or heavier .
     
  13. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    ok , if i give up on the wssm. i have narrowed it down to the 243ai or the 22-250 ai witch do you all like and why want to shoot the heavier bullets in 22 and the lighter in 243 . around 75 to 85 grian at about 3500 is what im looking for and ease of reloading.and no longer than 24in barrel. donovan


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm pretty sure those velocity are achievable but case life will be short. My 6MM Remington with 10 twist 28" Shilen tube will push the V-Max at around 3300 fps with only 43 grain of IMR 4350 with accuracy to boot. I could probably max this load up to 3500 with 45 grains of powder but there's no reason to. At this velocity, my 6MM with 87 grain V-Max shoots flatter than my 300 Win Mag loaded with 180 grain Hornady BTSP bullet at 1000 yards. Case and barrel life is excellent. I have some brass that had been reloaded more than a dozen times and still in very good condition. I probably have over 3000 rounds through my barrel and it will still hold 1/2 MOA. Moly might have a lot to do with it but the bottom line is, "yes, you can have your cake and you can eat them too". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  14. rotorhead

    rotorhead Well-Known Member

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    I would have to say the 243 for the weight you want to shoot. This will give you some room for bullet selection that will get you into deer sized game if you so desire later down the road, also a great coyote round. This is a very versitile round , nice range of bullet weights. I personally am a fan of the 26 inch barrel but the 24 should suffice for this round. The next great thing about the 243 is the ability to use Lapua brass , you just cant beat the quality. If you do a good job of preping and fire forming the brass to begin with it will last you a long time not to mention you generally get to use all that you buy.

    I am a fan of ackley improving a round , why?, because the idea behind the ackley is if you run short on ammo or you loose it in transport or should I say the "postal service looses it" you can chamber up store purchased ammunition but it gives you a semi-type wildcat so-to-speak. Some rounds just don't like to be ackley improved but several do. I have a 220 swift AI that is really great but many said it wouln't be any better than the 220 swift standard but sense I was building a custom rifle I improved it mainly to stop the aggressive brass growth known by the swift and found though experiment it can do better. I haven't worked with this particuliar round (243AI) so I would make sure the barrel is long enough at 24 to utilize the usefulness of the improved case capaticity, although I believe it will. Don't hesitate to call sierra tech line they are a good group up there in Missouri.

    Rh