first time lapping rings

[Deleted member 115360]

Based on what I have seen in the couple sets of rings that I have lapped I will say that the problem does exist. Recall that scientifically one and only one exception breaks the rule. Just because a rifle shoots well doesn't mean that it doesn't have this problem, it just means that it if it does have this problem that it does not suffer for it. Just as a rifle that shoots poorly is not an indication of the issue being present, a rifle shoots well is not an indication that the issue isn't present. However, in a poorly shooting rifle it may be the cause or one of them.

Buying quality rings is not a sure-fire method to avoid the rings needing some form of size, shape, and alignment correction, it's just a better bet that they won't. And has multiple threads in the past on this topic have stated, the most perfect rings in the world still may not align right if the base is not also perfect on the action.

If you don't want to lap your rings then I strongly suggest that you do not do it. However, you're never going to convince me that I don't need to do it, no matter what rings I buy. They will all get lapped, at least enough to check their alignment. Depending on those results they may get further lapped, they may get bedded, and they may get nothing. But they will be checked.

That is the difference between folks I guess. You see it as a measure to take just in case there might be an issue, even if the issue is absolutely irrelevant to apparent function.

I'm a simple guy. If it ain't broke, I'm not fixing it. When I assemble a rifle and it shoots as well or better than it's collective components allow, I don't monkey with it, I send lead down range. If there is a problem, I will diagnose it. I've had bad rings once. I threw them into the garbage and replaced the rings. It was really a threading issue, not an alignment issue, and it caused the scope to slip when firing. I've had dozens of accuracy issues over the years on different rifles, and it was always torque screws, a foreign item in the channel, a bad ammo/barrel combo, or me. I've never known a person in my life who fixed an accuracy issue by lapping their rings. You guys can do the humpty dance 3 times and salute the sun with your left hand before you sit down and shoot if that makes you shoot better, but the facts remain.

 

[ntsqd]

I see it as something that should be checked during the assembly. If lapping or bedding needs to be done then it needs to be done. If it doesn't then I'll move on to the next step.

You wouldn't build an engine without checking the bearing clearances and you wouldn't build a rifle without checking the head-space. This is much the same thing. Really doesn't matter if they're a stock crankshaft and connecting rods, or a Callies crank and some Carrillo con-rods. The bearing clearances need to be checked, the head-space needs to be checked, the scope rings alignment need to be checked. Assembling an engine or a rifle without checking the important tolerances is burying your head in the sand. And there are plenty of people who do that and have no idea that their equipment could be performing better than it does had they taken the extra steps. You don't check something like this to prove that it needed to be done. You do it to eliminate one more variable. It is perfectly fine with me if you'd rather bury your head in the sand. I know that I'll never convince you to check this, just as you'll never convince me that it doesn't need to be checked.

Those "alignment checking" pointed bars are nigh onto useless. The axis of the bore of one ring can be pointed 10 MOA down and the other axis could be pointed 13 MOA up, and if you happen to put those bars in just the right way their little noses will line up perfectly when the rings are anything but perfect. Use the lapping bar with some dykem or even a Sharpie to check alignment.

 

[Alibiiv]

Based on what I have seen in the couple sets of rings that I have lapped I will say that the problem does exist. Recall that scientifically one and only one exception breaks the rule. Just because a rifle shoots well doesn't mean that it doesn't have this problem, it just means that it if it does have this problem that it does not suffer for it. Just as a rifle that shoots poorly is not an indication of the issue being present, a rifle shoots well is not an indication that the issue isn't present. However, in a poorly shooting rifle it may be the cause or one of them.

Buying quality rings is not a sure-fire method to avoid the rings needing some form of size, shape, and alignment correction, it's just a better bet that they won't. And has multiple threads in the past on this topic have stated, the most perfect rings in the world still may not align right if the base is not also perfect on the action.

If you don't want to lap your rings then I strongly suggest that you do not do it. However, you're never going to convince me that I don't need to do it, no matter what rings I buy. They will all get lapped, at least enough to check their alignment. Depending on those results they may get further lapped, they may get bedded, and they may get nothing. But they will be checked.

Yup that's what I was trying to say in my previous two replies. To me bedding rings is a substitute for lapping because the bedding compound fills the voids that lapping removes, unless the rings are so out of alignment that only lapping will repair that misalignment. If misalignment is not corrected that's where the ring marks on scopes begin.

 

[JTB]

It starts with the base(s), how well do they fit the action? I bed all that I can. The one piece Talleys were a challenge because I felt that they needed to be clamped on the lapping bar while the bedding was curing.

Agree. That is the way I bed Talley rings. After applying epoxy to the bases and releasing agent to the action I start the base screws and lightly tighten them. Then I lightly tighten the scope or lapping bar in the rings to align them before semi tightening the base screw and allowing to cure. I know it may seem excessive but I then bed the scope in the rings to assure they have full contact and no binding around the scope (use a good releasing agent on the scope). The reason I put extra effort into securing the scope is sometimes the rifle is dropped in the field and unless there is a major incident my scopes generally holds zero even after a good bump.

 

[misterc01]

And I read a process where you check the ring alignemnt, then put Rosin on the rings and put in the scope and torque it down. The rosin is the bedding and non-slip process. As stated many times - everything suggeted on this or any other forum is YOUR choice to do/not do what others do or don't do.

 

[xFREDRICKx]

well if anyone cares, i have switched what i am doing. not b/c of the lapping conversation here but just bene thinking about doing this instead and pulled the trigger. bought the EARTAC Picatinny mount for the rifle with the 4mm BH Spuhr picatinny rings. Going to bed the mount to the receiver and just use a little rosin i have and put it in the rings for the sope.

 

[ntsqd]

I wouldn't consider rosin to be bedding, it really can't do that job. That it will work to keep the scope from slipping is a given.

 

[Glenn Tullius]

So i have never lapped rings before but since i spent some money on a schmidt and bender klassik on a new hunting sauer rifle i would like to lap my talley rings. Now, as i watch youtube their are various ways people lap rings. All relatively the same concept but has to do with how long you lap and do you keep tightening the screws down. Anyone have any solid video they trust on it or some pointers?

I just bought a set of Leupold rings for a cz527. The scope was so tight to set in that I HAD TO LAP THEM to get the scope to settle! If the scope sets well, I don't lap, but this time I had to. I only do the bottom half, and I only do enough to get it in properly. Don't overlap and make the whole bottom shiney!

 

[Greyfox]

The Tally alloy rings/w bases I have used did needs to be lapped. I lapped only the bottom ring halves so that the lapped(bare metal) was about 75% of the surface area. I have done this with three of my LR rifles and they have all performed superbly for several years.

 

[Bob Wright]

I use the lapping bar to align the bases, lightly tighten with special torx tools under the bar, finish torque, then lap. There are screw hole tolerances in the bases and action, and resulting clearances that will allow varying degrees of misalignment. I don't care how well the rings are made. It's in the assembly process where most misalignment can happen.
I don't like putting high dollar scopes in misaligned rings. I've seen too many damaged scopes from careless installs where misalignment was obvious.

 

[david g ranes]

As I've stated several times, I have a safe full of half moa rifles and I've never lapped a set of rings in my life. You cannot prove that you don't need something. The burden of proof would be in the questions I asked above. The invention of lapping bars came about to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Maybe it did many years ago, but not anymore. I buy quality components, and my rifles shoot, they always shoot.

Take one of all those half minute guns you have out of the safe and lap some rings you just might have a one holer trying to get out of the closet. David

 

[Deleted member 115360]

Take one of all those half minute guns you have out of the safe and lap some rings you just might have a one holer trying to get out of the closet. David

Or I might make it a 2 moa rifle. Needless to say, I won't be playing that game of chance. I'm a hunter, not an f class shooter, so if I have a rifle that shoots a little better than moa, I'm done tinkering.

 

[Idaholandho]

As I've stated several times, I have a safe full of half moa rifles and I've never lapped a set of rings in my life. You cannot prove that you don't need something. The burden of proof would be in the questions I asked above. The invention of lapping bars came about to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Maybe it did many years ago, but not anymore. I buy quality components, and my rifles shoot, they always shoot.

Having lapped and bedded rings in the past, honestly I have done it to spend more time with my guns and be more involved with my hobby. Back in the day I used Leupold rings and may of have had more of a reason to do either than today.
Having more than my share of Talley rings, with spares on my bench, I lapped a set for a new setup 9 months ago knowing I didn't have to. I am no long distance secret sniper F class super shooter and never will be.
The timing of this thread is fantastic because I recently decided never to lap another set. The best I advice I have is to practice on a cheap set or two before laying down the big bucks and ruining them. You can ruin them, ask me how I know.
Best of Luck.

 

[Ross1147]

I just went through this with a set of high Talley rings for a defiance action. First the rings in the package were different, one had pin one did not? Still tried to mount on gun and realized the scope wouldn't fit into the aft ring. Not about to scratch a 3K scope forcing it in so I stopped and emailed Talley with pictures. After a couple weeks with no response (I should have called) I wanted to shoot the gun so I elected to lap. I lapped just enough to get the scope to fit in without forcing it in. Well, it wasn't enough. To get the scope onto paper at 100 yds I was 5 clicks away from full left.
Called Talley the next Monday and explained to them what happened. They weren't too happy with me for lapping the rings, but told me to send them back anyway. The rings were delivered to Talley on Saturday and received an email today for a partial refund (partial as in they refunded the price of the rings, not shipping). So, I guess I'm happy they refunded anything considering I did void the warranty. Maybe I got lucky that I had documentation (pictures and email) that I provided with the issue prior to lapping.
Long story short, be ready to eat the price of the rings if there's a fault with them you can't prove wasn't a result of the lapping.