Did I fix my reloading problem, do others do this?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Airgunner7, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. Airgunner7

    Airgunner7 Well-Known Member

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    So I made a roller to measure my neck runout on the brass...it was kinda bad.
    Fired brass was around .002
    After neck sizing and bullet seating it mostly went to .005-.010

    What to do, I pondered.....order better dies than the standard rcbs?

    I took one fired brass that had .0025 runout and hit it with the FL die and sure as a politicians promise it went south.....006 runout. I thought what do I have to lose so I ran it up a few more times while changing it's relation to the die. Darn thing got better and better (easier to press too) .003, .002 etc.. until after 5 or so runs at it I was at .0005 lightbulb

    Am I smoking crack here or do others do this?

    My only question is safety with working that neck brass a few times, after the first one it hardly feels like it is being worked much. Sure comes out nice though. I can't wait to see the final runout with the bullet.
     
  2. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    I have done what you mention, but with a bushing style die. I am assuming you don't have an expander ball, if the stroke becomes easier?

    That would be the downside IMO of working it more than once (unless you're stopping short of the ball being pulled through the neck). Because the neck would theoretically be worked back and forth every stroke if it were a full stroke.

    Anyway, glad to hear you got the runout down.:)
     

  3. JARHEAD1371

    JARHEAD1371 Well-Known Member

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    You might want to anneal your case necks. They can act strange like that if they are in need of a good flaming.
     
  4. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    Just reading the thread again. I noticed that you mention .0025 runout on once fired, unsized cases? Am I reading this correct?

    If that's the case (no pun intended) then the chamber isn't very concentric IMO. I find very little runout on necks of fired cases.

    The old saying is "Out 2 on fireing = Out 4 on sizing = Out 8 on seating".
    In other words, each step usually doubles runout. I have found this to be more or less true on more than one rifle/die.

    A good chamber should have < .001 total run out on fired cases, measured on the necks (and assuming the necks are concentric and not dented/deformed(uniform thickness, not ejected hard)).

    But anyway, after reading your post again; I am assuming you already knew some of this.
    Let me know on the expander ball?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  5. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Airgunner,

    I do the same thing using about 6 to 8 strokes when sizing and then do the same thing seating the bullet. Using this method I get almost all my loads down to .001 to .0005. If I size and seat with a singe stroke each my runout will instantly go up to .005 or worse using the exact same dies and setup.
     
  6. Airgunner7

    Airgunner7 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it is a regular FL die with expander ball. It is Nosler custom 300rum brass that has been necked down to 7rum, fireformed, then sized and reloaded/fired again.

    I have about 30 or so of these 2x fired empty cases.
    Have 20 loaded 1x fired rounds left in my box to compair them to.

    I just measured a dozen of them and high was .0035 low .0010.
    I guess I could toss the some of the higher ones but, in all fairness I have not neck turned any of these noslers.

    I have some neck turned/fired remington brass and it has about the same rounout before sizing too. Is this normal for a factory Sendero?

    Not looking for bench rest here, just nice straight loaded ammo.
     
  7. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    That does seem high to me, even for a factory chamber. But maybe I've just been lucky and gotten some of the better ones?
     
  8. TnTom

    TnTom Well-Known Member

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    not uncommon that the expander ball tweeks the neck as the case hardens, cure is to anneal the case.

    If you are seeing .0025 out of the chamber you chamber is not concentric.

    If I'm understanding what your saying you are full length sizing repeating the stroke as you rotate the case to achieve a minimum indicator reading at the same time you decrease the life of the case as there is a degree of work hardening occurring from the excessive working of the case material.

    I'll F/L size new brass and pay little or no attention to run-out then load and once fire. At that time run-out should be less than .0005" if the chamber itself is any good, then simply neck size, there should be no increase in neck R/O. I anneal about every 5th firing and F/l size again at that time. I'll reload a case usually no less than 10 times unless I see some signs of cracks at the mouth then I'll toss in the bucket.

    Ive found R/O is usually the sizing ball tweaking the neck. Use some 2000 grit emery and polish the ball and be sure the case mouth is lubed before you size.

    I have found the FL die on one occasion with i.d.'s not concentric and returned the die. One way to determine is to remove the sizing ball, run the brass through the die and check run out on that case. If the neck is not concentric its in the die.
     
  9. Airgunner7

    Airgunner7 Well-Known Member

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    Good tips, I'll go check the dies.

    I am a bit concerned with my fired brass coming out with .002 or so neck runout on the Sendero brass . My other Sako 270 Nosler brass comes out at a little less than .001

    How is it possible to have an untrue chamber when what I assume it is cut with a turning reamer?

    Guess I should stop thinking about it and go see if the staight ones shoot any better. I've sorted the 20 loaded rounds into groups. I plan to shoot the "bad ones in two diffrent ways, half with all the offsets the same way and the others in random positions. I'm routing for the 3 almost perfect rounds to shine.
     
  10. TnTom

    TnTom Well-Known Member

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    If the reamer is true and the diameters to be reamed are not true prior to reaming the reamer will follow. There are some variables.

    Personally its not an issue worth spending a lot of time on contrary to a lot of other opinions. You will gain more measurable improvement in your groups by loading the brass and getting on the trigger. .002,.003, and under load em and shoot em. Over .003 throw them in the bucket if it is that big of a deal but you never convince me that you can measure the results in your group size and tie it to runout variations ,ot with your small sample size. You need to make the determination over the shooting season shooting under the best conditions.

    The makers of the runout tooling are gong to tell you otherwise and your going to continue spending more $$$ to improve their bottom line than you will ever measure in your group size. Is it a gimmick? Decide for yourself but plan on making your decision based on many rounds fired under very similar conditions.

    If your plan is to shoot extreme ranges 800 - 1000+ it a legitimate concern. I shot 600 yd matches and over the season tracked bullet run out and scores and I shot consistent scores with loads that varied up .004" I used those for spotters and shot for score with .003 and under. Couldnt tell the difference. did I win a lot of matches, no but I didn't shoot much out of the 10 ring. except on windy days I didn't do so good.

    Trigger time is far more of an influence on good groups than runout will ever be. I know how frustrating it is when rolling your own but don't let it take the fun out of your game.

    MHO
     
  11. Airgunner7

    Airgunner7 Well-Known Member

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    I see what you are saying, who cares about 1 moa vs 1/2 moa if you can't read wind....but, this is more about reloading skills and the results from it.

    .003 is pretty good on a loaded round. My bad ones are .007+
    I think it will make a difference. I need to improve and measure my process.

    Honestly, it wouldn't be any fun without a challange. If rifles shot perfectly and could read wind for you it would be boring.

    I just hope for a nice day tommorow to test some theories and get some trigger time.gun)
     
  12. TnTom

    TnTom Well-Known Member

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    I hear ya. Its a nagging thing hanging in the back of your mind. If your experiencing 5's, 6's and 7's I'd have to figure that one out for sure.

    Possible try this. Take ten fired cases and check the runout both the i.d. and the o.d. and magic mark to see if they align. Write down each and record the average runout.

    Remove the sizing button from your FL die and and run 5 of them through and recheck the runout and see if the runout changes. (Mark how you put them in the shell holder).
    Dont rotate and resize, just once through.

    Put the sizing stem back in and do the last 5 samples and see if they look any different (more runout).

    If possible use once fired brass. Id be curious what the results are.

    I have found that I can improve my r/o somewhat if I rotate the case while I seat the bullet or if I'm neck sizing I'll rotate 180 and compress the neck twice.

    Just stay at it. If your seeing the 7's then something should show itself and Id guess its the sizing button tweaking the shoulder. If you can put an indicator on the shoulder dia see what it shows out of the chamber then after resizing with and without the button in place.

    It get real tedious chasing this element around. .002's out of the chamber is hard to resolve. Its not a good starting point. What kind of barrel are you shooting?
     
  13. Airgunner7

    Airgunner7 Well-Known Member

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    I did get a good day of shooting in to finish off the ones left over.

    No groups stand out other than the coldbore flyer.
    1.3" and 1.4" at 200Y were average groups for me.

    Measured my neck runout and as far as I can tell they all go .00075-.0025 in the same direction. The best being the straight rounds to begin with.
    I think the chamber is slightly off and my reloading only compounds it.

    I'm all stoked to load up all 50 again with some attention to the runout and try em again since, a few groups are not enough to go on to blame the chamber.
     
  14. TnTom

    TnTom Well-Known Member

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    not too bad at all. Isnt that some thing like .7moa?