Carbon wraped barrels

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by darrindlh, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. darrindlh

    darrindlh Well-Known Member

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    Guys,
    what is your opinion of the abs carbon wraps for barrels. Can I send in my barrel so they can wrap it? Is it worth it? How much does it cost? Any opinions would be appreciated. Thank you so much

    Darrin
     

  2. dirtboy

    dirtboy Well-Known Member

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    I like mine, Yes it is worth it by the right people. I had christensenarms do mine. I have a 30-378 and right out of the box it shot 1/2 moa with factory ammo. gun weighs just under 10lbs. with scope sling stock ammo carrier and 2 accubonds 180 grgun):)
     

  3. csumpm

    csumpm Member

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    Don't have ABS do it ... I had a horrendous experience with ABS and you can read that many others have had too.

    There are several gunsmiths who are approved to use the ABS carbon wrapping process... I recommend that you should definitely use one of them instead.
     
  4. winmag

    winmag Well-Known Member

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    Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does the proscess entail? Do they grind off a bunch of steel for wt. then wrap it with carbon for strength? Whats the bennifit of carbon wraps? Whats the proscess?
    Ive seen ''carbon bbl's'' small steel tube with big carbon shell, but what would they do to an existing bbl?
    What am I missing here?
    Thanks in advance for educating me:D
     
  5. dirtboy

    dirtboy Well-Known Member

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    @ Winmag, Check out Christensenarms.com . This is where I had mine done. They turn down the barrel and then carbon wrapp it. from what I understand there diffrent way to do this. They claim they hold a number of diffrent pattens in the technqu. they use. Carbon is 5 time stronger than steel and disappets heat 10 time faster the steel. I had bought a used accumark 30-378 and what I did was sent it to them. I had them put on a new 26'' shilen match grade barrel, titauim muzzle brake, timney trigger at 2.5lbs, teflon and accurized the action square up the bolt face, free float the barrel. all the that work cost about 1,600. The gun was 1,300. Now having shot the gun before with 3-4 shots with the old barrel you could fri an egg on it. Now it barrly feel warm and not to mention when I got it back i bought some FACTORY ammo 180 BT shot almost hole in hole my first three. The gun shoots 1/2 no problem. My gun has a S&B mil. LP 3x12x50 scope that wieghs 32oz and with sling, 2 180gr. accbonds the gun reads just under 10lbs. I am really happy with the work they did. They have a great website alot of info and the have a lot of videos to see thier rifle in action. I found it alot cheaper to have to work done on my used rifle considering what I would of spent in upgrade with action+ then to buy one of thier custom to get the same rifle. The only diffrecnce to me was the accuracy garuntee. You only get that if you buy a new custom. Dont belive anything you hear about muzzle jump. I had a bunch of local dealers tell me I get a lot of muzzle jump and recoil with a 30-378 carbon wrapped. The gun is about like a 20 gauge withlow brass. I hope I helped you outgun)lightbulb
     
  6. dirtboy

    dirtboy Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    I am like Winmag on this one. "WHY"

    I have looked into this process and see absolutely no benefit as far as accuracy.

    Turning a barrel down and wrapping it with carbon fiber can only reduce the weight with a
    large contour and by going to a smaller contour you can do the same thing without risking
    the precision of a barrel.

    The most accurate barrel is a perfictly true contour or strait cylinder that is dimensionally
    identical in thickness at any point from the bore. Any thing that you do to the outside of
    a barrel risk changing these dimensions and the uniform stiffness of a homogeneous barrel
    material.

    At one time fluting a barrel effected accuracy greatly because of poor machining practice,
    but now it is not as much of a risk because of the better equiptment and quality control.
    But I still have to reject a few barrels that have been fluted poorly and have excessive
    run out center to center.

    Some of these barrels have a reputation for shooting well. But the risk of getting a stinker
    are greater if anything is done to the barrel so the risk are just not worth the cost and
    looks just to have something different.

    In my opinion when it comes to accuracy of a barrel "Less is more".

    If you notice . Most of the barrels with this treatment are small bores where recoil velocities
    are mild and barrel harmonics are minimal. This makes uniformity's less important than in
    hard kicking rifles. On the larger bore rifles heat is a problem because it acts like an insulator
    and feels cool on the outside but can be over heated on the inside to the point of ruining a
    good barrel from overheating the bore.

    This is just my opinion and by no means should it prevent you from buying one if you
    want one . It is just my opinion and belief If I were ask to build a rifle with 1/4 MOA
    capabilities I would not use a wrapped barrel or one that had a "Special" treatment just
    for looks.

    J E CUSTOM
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  8. csumpm

    csumpm Member

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    supposedly ... stronger, lighter and cooler.

    I can speak to lighter - significantly so and is the main reason I prefer them. It is a lot nicer lugging a 8 lb rifle in the field than it is a 10 + lb one. This attribute makes the price and hassle worth it to me.

    The other two attributes would have to be proven by some independent labratory :)

    I haven't seen any impact on accuracy - better or worse -- when the carbon barrel is done by a reputable person - not all are. You have to be especially careful in this arena because there are real unsavory people in this space and I have been burned.

    Of course, they have to turn down the barrel to overlay with Carbon fiber.
    As to the process - you would have to ask the people who do it.

    I have a Christiansen Arms rifle and a rifle with a barrel done by Todd Bettin using the ABS process - both of these rifles group 1/2" or less regularly.

    I have/had two done by ABS - one doesn't group the bullets in 1", the other one I scrapped.
     
  9. B23

    B23 Well-Known Member

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    csumpm, the 2 ABS barrels that didn't turn out so well, were they Satern barrels or Rock or ????? Also, did you scrap them at your expense or did they give you another barrel or ?????????

    If it was at your expense that would really suck considering they cost about 1k and take forever to get.

    I certainly like the idea of having a lighter gun but I don't like the idea of spending 1k on a barrel, waiting upwards of a year or more to get it, then hoping and praying it's a good one. I don't like those odds at all!
     
  10. dirtboy

    dirtboy Well-Known Member

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    When I was checking out these carbon barrels I steered toward Christensen arms for a few reasons. The turn around time they told me was 2-3 months. I got my gun in 2.5 month. Thier website looks like it was done professionally and they have a lot of customor results on their that will take you the better part of a day to go threw. From alot of custom rifle builders I seen, not to many of them have thier rifle on this level of production. So that tell me they have a solid customor base. They have videos of the gun in action. Accuracy, If you let your steel barrel cool down inbetween shots I guess accuracy wouldn't be affected. As far as heat goes. They make pretty big deal of carbon letting go of it a lot faster. I wouldn't put that kind of info out there if it wasn't true, then again I could be wrong, I never put a thermonotor in the barrel to see if it is acting as a insulator or not. I do know when I take some shots I dont say hey that barrels hot. They also advertise they get about 20% more barrel life out of the barrel. Your doind that by holding heat in. As far just on small caibers, They make a bull barrel and a sportor barrel. I have a 30-378 I would call that a mild caliber. I know they do a lot of 300 and 338 ultra, I've seen 375 ultras, 416 and they even have a carbon wrapped 50 cal for sale. I dont think they would sell something being as big of a company they are to have it blow up in your face. I really think you just need to check out who is doing the work.lightbulb
     
  11. B23

    B23 Well-Known Member

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    dirtboy, you have had a great experience with Christensen Arms and that's awesome for you but I think if you were to do much checking around, other than the testinonials on their website, you would find you're in the minority not the majority.

    If someone is looking for a very light rifle and you are willing to sacrifice that light weight for other areas of importance, then Christensen Arms is who you want because I doubt you will find many to argue their ability to make a light rifle.
     
  12. dirtboy

    dirtboy Well-Known Member

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    B23, your right I did have a good experience with Christensen arms. I did look around at diffrent forums talking about carbon barrels and I look around at other custom gun builders.the few custom builders out their that seemed like they biult one hell of a rifle,but were really small buissness and make me think If I bought a rifle off them and they kick the bucket a month later who is going to warrenty the rifle is something fatcory goes wrong or they make they make their own ammo thet you cant get on the shelf. Most of the posts i have heard bad things about Christensen seem to be from other custom gun builders or their buddys. Which is fine. As far as Sacraficeing other areas of the gun for a light wieght rifle when you buy Christensen arms. i dont understand. Anytime you hear about a custom gun builder talking about the accuracy of his rifle its always the gun will shoot 1/2 or less @100. For a hunting rifle this I think is pretty good. Mine has shot this and less with factory ammo and I by no means consider my self a long range guy,but 1/2'' is 1/2'' I dont care what barrel it comes out of. They do garuntee thier rifle.

    Having said all that, (sorry if I burned anyones eyes out) When searching around for a rifle and decideing what to buy their was always someone that had something bad to say about 99% of the rifles out there. Its just like bullets, I see guys dropping deer,moose and elk in thier tracks at 8-900+ with 180gr whatever kind of bullets ALL DAY LONG and then you read a post the next day and someone states that the bullet is no good because his buddys uncles grandma couldn't get it to shoot good groups that its the bullets fault.:D
     
  13. csumpm

    csumpm Member

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    My barrels that I sent to ABS - one was a Kreiger and the other was Bartlein - both barrels came back to me w/ stainless brakes. I ordered and was promised titanium.

    The Kreiger was scrapped. It was replaced by another Gunsmith.

    The Bartlein sits as is w/ the stainless brake and won't shoot 1" 3 shot groups w/ handloads worked up with numerous bullets and powders...

    The Kreiger replacement 300 WSM barrel is a Satern and it shoots very good... 1/2" consistently and 1/4" occasionally. I think the "occasionally" is the fault of the shooter, not the barrel :)

    I have a Browning rifle that Christensen Arms customized a few years ago. They set the trigger pull at 2 lbs. That 240 Weatherby barrel is a shooter and the rifle wasn't when I sent it. I have shot some amazing 3 shot groups with that rifle and it will still shoot 1/2" groups all day even with me at the helm.

    All my wrapped barrels are/were stainless. What I wanted lighter weight and all three rifles are much lighter than when I sent them out to be worked over.
     
  14. Buano

    Buano Well-Known Member

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    JE,

    You aren't following the engineering.
    A carbon wrapped barrel dissipates heat faster than a solid steel barrel,
    A carbon wrapped barrel is stiffer than a solid steel barrel, and,
    A carbon wrapped barrel is lighter than a steel barrel.

    Since the carbon wrapped barrel is stiffer than a solid steel barrel, barrel harmonics are minimized relative a steel barrel, meaning more loads will shoot well and most loads will shoot better than with a steel barrel.

    This is the ONLY process shown where lighter (almost always) means better accuracy.

    Your claim that, "The most accurate barrel is a perfictly true contour or strait cylinder that is dimensionally
    identical in thickness at any point from the bore." is wrong. There is no engineering principles to support such a claim.
    • The most accurate barrel for a given weight would have a relatively thin barrel with large reinforcements on 3 sides to get maximum stiffness for a given weight. Since this is impractical to manufacture & would be EXTREMELY expensive to machine, I never expect to see such a rifle. (This would have immense surface area to radiate heat.)
    •The most practical version of this would have a barrel that is thicker in its middle to add stiffness, thicker near the chamber to control the explosion, and tapered towards the muzzle where added material would not appreciable help with stiffness. In practical shape this would mean a bull barrel with taper towards the muzzle. Although this is correct from an engineering standpoint, such a barrel is ugly. Since buyers don't buy ugly guns I don't expect to see many of these.
    • The most accurate barrel would be drilled into a massive steel billet with 20 or 30 tons of mass to absorb heat and resist flexing as a load is fired and would have water lines running through it to carry away excess heat. As this is absurd, the bull-barrel is the closest most of us will come to seeing such a weapon.
    • Carbon wrapping adds the stiffness and heat dissipation of the gusseted barrel without metal ribs protruding on 3 sides and does so in a light-weight form.

    Your statement that, "On the larger bore rifles heat is a problem because it (presumably referring to carbon fiber) acts like an insulator and feels cool on the outside but can be over heated on the inside to the point of ruining a good barrel from overheating the bore." is simply WRONG. Carbon fiber conducts heat away from the hot center of a barrel faster than steel. (Steel is not a very good conductor of heat & many things conduct it faster.)

    There is a valid reason carbon fiber barrels are rarely seen on guns with immense recoil. That reason is inertia. A heavy barrel simply kicks less fast upon pulling the trigger so felt recoil is less. For this reason few .378 Weatherby or .500 BMG rifles will be produced by Christenson Arms. (Any sane person would want a .50 BMG to weigh at least 25 pounds.)