Black gun rant

[buzzgun]

Buzzgun,

Here is where you are missing the boat. The whole idea of this post was not who has the right to be at the range based on equipment. The idea was that when people are there with automatics, they need to be more considerate and it seems to be more of a problem with that group than any other.

If you think I sound like I'm better than these guys, than that is your judgement. It doesn't bother me a bit. I have been called an elitist a time or two before, but interestingly, only by people who don't know me or what I do. By being educated and well versed in the more extensive aspects of ballistics and firearms, those who are less educated usually throw this at me. No biggie. I am not going to unlearn everything I know just to please the "rambo wannabes". Does that mean that the rambo guys don't deserve the right to own guns? NO! DOes that mean the rambo guys shouldn't get to use the rifle range? NO! Does that mean that when they show up and spray lead all over the place that those who are there to shoot accurately should go over to them and talk down to them? NO! Does the fact that the rifle they chose to bring mean they are not serious about their sport? NO! But I think we've all been to the range enough times to see the same thing I witnessed and if you haven't, you will. Trust me.

ANd if you had seen most of these guys at the range that day, you would have taken the same bet that they couldn't pay for any damage they would have caused. COme to think of it, I don't know too many people at all who carry 10 grand around in their wallet!

Btw, I'd like to know what kind of a black gun you bought and who signed it to make it total more than $10,000? Unless Angelina Jolie made love to it and John Hancocked it, you got skrewed. My friends who are bigtime into tactical shooting have spent a pretty penny on black guns and they aren't even half that. ANd it sounds like Boss Hoss has darn well had every kind of AR and he can't fathom the amount you're talking either.

I agree that those shooting something that throws brass SHOULD be very considerate as to where that brass is going.......go back and read my first post in this thread and you will find that I was stating an opinion that your post did, in fact, come across to me just as it had to Nonya.......you seemed to think he was the only one who saw it that way.......he wasn't.


As to my "black rifles" that are worth more than 10 grand......look at my "handle" and think about it.......

 

[buzzgun]

I have a question for you folks that think that GG was wrong here.

You are stopped on the shoulder of a gravel road with your reasonably new truck, and you are glassing some antelope on public property.

1) A trucker rounds the corner and kicks up some stones that hit your truck;

2) Someone with a hot rod stops to see what you are up to, and when he leaves, he "burns out" kicking stones on your truck.

The results are the same, but the question is do you acknowledge that the "hot rodder" CAUSED this damage at least somewhat intentionally vs the trucker accidentally causing damage?

edge.

Absolutely.........but, since we can't read the mind of the black rifle guy that GG talks about, we can't know if he even realized what he was doing.....can we???? Now, if we know for certain that he was TRYING to spray GG's equipment, then he needs a butt kicking!!

 

[goodgrouper]

I agree that those shooting something that throws brass SHOULD be very considerate as to where that brass is going.......go back and read my first post in this thread and you will find that I was stating an opinion that your post did, in fact, come across to me just as it had to Nonya.......you seemed to think he was the only one who saw it that way.......he wasn't.


As to my "black rifles" that are worth more than 10 grand......look at my "handle" and think about it.......

I'm very sorry for you if you see things the way that Nonya does. I wouldn't advertise it much!

Obviously, your moniker denotes what starts your engine. You have full auto guns. Good for you! I knew the minute you posted with a name like buzzgun, you were going to get fired up about my thread. But I don't care. I'm not here to make friends with that group of shooters just like they are usually not at the range to further precision accuracy or learn anything. They just like to hear their guns go off and that's fine. All I ask is to do it in a safe manner away from other's and their equipment. It sounds like that is not a problem for you and that is good.

 

[goodgrouper]

There were fewer rude people a few decades ago, because rude behavior was not tolerated and it was a good way to get your running lights punched out...

Watch Lonesome Dove, and Capt. Call's quote rang true in the day "rudeness in a man, just wont tolerate it". Capt. Call made that statement after justly and thoroughly kicking a rude mans ***

Absolutely. Rudeness is one of the things that is lowering the overall quality of life everywhere.

 

[buzzgun]

There ya go, once again you've fully explained yourself and your motives... I read just fine and understand completely.

You're right in your own mind. Everyone else, including GG, has it all wrong. buzzgun has it being GG's fault. GG should have given priority to the the other guys because according to buzzgun, he esposed an air of superiority simply due to the rifles and equipment he brought to the range. Never mind that GG never vocalized any statements about his equipment being higher class than their equipment. Secondly, and this tells us all we really need to know about buzzgun... if GG had only taken his rightful bench at the range, he wouldn't have brought these problems on himself and life would have been great. But possibly not so great for the next shooter to occupy the bench to the right of the disrespectful guys with the buzzguns. Which is what this thread was all about yet you choose to ignore that completely.

Comply with two buzzgun conditions; 1) bring weapons and equipment to the range that buzzgun finds acceptable and 2) select a bench that buzzgun finds acceptable, and then buzzgun is content and has no objections. Why not add a 3rd condition - don't use the gun range when the disrespectfuls show up. Just concede the range.

Are you nonya in disguise?

Provided you get to control other peoples lives, you sleep like a baby. When you can't, you cry like one.

No, I'm not Nonya, never met him, don't know anything about him......


I do know that you have a SERIOUS comprehension problem if you believe anything you posted in the quote above is related to anything I've posted on this thread......heck, you can't even seem to grasp the difference between an opinion and an attitude!!! Guess anyone who disagrees with you has a "bad attitude"??

Just to set the record straight:

I never suggested that GG should have "given priority to the the other guys".......

Second, simple fact is, if GG had set up to the far left, this problem would never have happened, if you can't see that, you are a fool.........that's not to say (and I NEVER claimed) that it was GG's fault, or that he should have to set up anywhere specific, or that GG brought the problem on himself, or that the black gun guys weren't being rude....or any of the other things you claim I said.......but the simple fact remains, if he had set up to the far left, none of this would have happened.......

Third, I never suggested any "conditions"........and you are just plain silly to suggest that I did or would........

Make no mistake, I've said it before and I'll say it again......the guy spraying GG with brass shouldn't have done it........maybe he knew he was doing it, maybe he didn't, but he was still wrong......I have never made excuses for their behavior or tried to justify it......


But, go ahead and dream up more stuff that I supposedly said........you seem to be good at it!!!

 

[goodgrouper]

I used to really enjoy this site.

Me too! A lot of the helpful, knowledgeable, and experienced friendly people are gone or don't post anymore for fear of being ridiculed or having to put up with the bs. THankfully, there are still some of the people here that make it great.

 

[goodgrouper]

I was at the range one time last summer and had a similar experience. I got there and took one of the open benches that were available and started shooting. While I was shooting a couple of guys came and went on both sides of me. I was just concentrating on sending a round down range at a target and all of the sudden I got hit right in the side of the face, while I was in process of shooting, by a hot-hot piece of brass that got ejected from a guys gun that sat two benches to the left of me. It pizzed me off so badly I got up and gathered up all of my stuff and tore out of there like nobody's buisness. The bad thing was, I felt bad about it because of the way I reacted. I don't like getting hit in the face with anything, let alone a hot piece of brass and not to mention when I am in process of shooting. A little courtasy can go a long ways in keeping somewhat of a peaceful state at the range.

Yet another incident like mine. THanks for sharing it. It seems I'm not so up in the night about this subject.

 

[jwp475]

Absolutely.........but, since we can't read the mind of the black rifle guy that GG talks about, we can't know if he even realized what he was doing.....can we???? Now, if we know for certain that he was TRYING to spray GG's equipment, then he needs a butt kicking!!

It makes no difference if they were aware or not it is still there responsibility to not interfere or injure others, pure and simple.
Definitely their responsibility to be aware.

 

[buzzgun]

I'm very sorry for you if you see things the way that Nonya does. I wouldn't advertise it much!

Obviously, your moniker denotes what starts your engine. You have full auto guns. Good for you! I knew the minute you posted with a name like buzzgun, you were going to get fired up about my thread. But I don't care. I'm not here to make friends with that group of shooters just like they are usually not at the range to further precision accuracy or learn anything. They just like to hear their guns go off and that's fine. All I ask is to do it in a safe manner away from other's and their equipment. It sounds like that is not a problem for you and that is good.

Didn't say I see things as Nonya does, don't recall ever reading any of his posts other than this thread, just said I agreed with him that your initial post came across as arrogant...... doesn't mean I agree with him about anything else.....I couldn't say since I know nothing about him.

As far as what "starts my engine".......I enjoy all types of shooting......one of my favorites is long range shooting, not to the level that you practice it, but not everyone has the facilities or opportunities that you enjoy......and, NO, I'm not one of those Rambo wannabes.......I enjoy shooting "black rifles", but I'm not one of those weekend commandos......in fact, most of those type guys I see are shooting "sniper rifles" on our 600 yard range and can't hit squat......but that's another story.......personally, I enjoy everything from air rifles to 50 bmg and up......in fact I REALLY would like to have a big black powder cannon!!!

I guess the bottom line is, don't judge a person based on what they brought to the range that day.......and don't assume that you are a more dedicated shooter because the stuff you have on your bench today is worth more than the stuff they have on the bench today.......they might have WAY more money invested in the equipment they left at home.....and, even if they don't, dedication isn't based on how much money a person spends on equipment.

 

[buzzgun]

It makes no difference if they were aware or not it is still there responsibility to not interfere or injure others, pure and simple.
Definitely their responsibility to be aware.

I absolutely agree, 100%......

 

[lazylabs]

I'll admit I skipped the middle 5 pages of rant but to address your initial issue. Why not have the range install mesh screens between benches. There are quite a few of those around here and that seems to work well. I guess the next rule is to ban everyone with less than a $3000 rifle.... they must not be worthy of shooting.

 

[dwm]

I have had "HOT" 223 cases go down my shirt from the guy one or even two benches down, no fun!

You could subtley sugget to the black gun guys that they put a rag over the ejection port.

Fired cases will fall right on the bench beside them. Works great.

Someone made this suggestion to me one time, now I shoot the black gun that way all the time. I do like to keep my brass and that makes it easy. I have to say the black gun hasn't gotten much use lately though.

What I get a kick out of is when they go, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, between rounds that I fire. I may fire two, maybe three rounds to their 20 round mag ...keep shootin till its empty. (all I can think of is wow, that throat must be hot.)

But then I can also hear the guys at the pistol range shooting as fast as they can to empty their weapon also. I sometimes wish I could afford that much ammo, or have someone else pay for it.

Too bad the 50 yd range is to the left where I shoot, otherwise I would chose that spot everytime after reading this ...

 

[goodgrouper]

Rant: part two

Well, at the risk of offending more black gun enthusiasts, I thought I would type up the rant: part two.

Four days after the "incident", I'm at the same range with the same guns on a non-public day. I was there most of the morning and afternoon and I only had one visitor all day. And guess who it was, a black gun shooter! Luckily, I had set all my gear up on the farthest left bench "just in case" so flying brass was not going to be a problem. But there was another problem. This particular shooter seemed to posess the other all too common problem some of these types have. A lack of awareness as to where their bullets go AFTER they hit their target.
You see, I had four rather expensive windflags set up (all out of the line of fire of course on the left side of the range) that are very obvious and easy to see. I know this shooter saw them as he asked what they were and why I use them. After a brief explanation of them, this shooter began to get setup to shoot his gun.
Well, he walked out to 25 yards (on the 100 yard RIFLE range) and set up a glass bottle on top of the cement target holder in the ground. Then he walked back to the bench and popped in a 30 round magazine and began to spray the ground in front of us. Now, I don't think our range was designed for glass targets, and I'm pretty sure that craters in the concrete target holders will not go over well with the city who owns and built the range. And I'm absolutely certain that I did not enjoy my windflags getting peppered with richocets! After his little "burst" of ammo, I told him that what he just did probably wasn't very good. He asked, "why". He seemed to be totally oblivious to the fact that bullets damage things and go downrange on unintended trajectories after coming in contact with the ground. Well, after I tought this guy a little about proper range etiquette and terminal ballistics, he asked some other questions that showed me by their vary nature that he really had no idea what he was doing. He bought this rifle 'cause it was "cool" and proceeded to shoot it before learning anything about it like a 16 year old girl comprehends mechanical aspects of the car she's driving.
Was it a coincidence that this shooter's first gun was an AR15 and so oblivious as to the damage he was causing? Perhaps. But why then did I guess something was going to go wrong that day as soon as I saw him pull out a black gun? I'm not psychic. I just made an educated guess. Did I pre-judge him? You bet. Is is unfair? Maybe. But it is something everyone does. If your walking down a dark alley at night and you see a tatted up fella in black leather and a whiskey bottle in one hand, you don't think, "gee, there's a nice guy who I should set up with my sister". You put one hand on your gun or pepper spray and walk the other way without making eye contact.


Now I know those of you who are now linked over from the black gun forums are really getting boiled and are probably forgetting about the glass bottle and the concrete hits and just cussing me for having wind flags out downrange. Well, this is MY game. I use windflags. And they have never been hit by bolt gun shooters. Ever. Coincidence? Maybe. But one thing is for sure. A 100 yard rifle range is built with the target frames 3 to 6 feet above the ground for a reason. That is the intended line of fire for centerfire rifles. If you want to shoot the ground at less than that yardage, you should go over to the handgun range or rimfire range or run the risk of damaging property that doesn't belong to you and having to pay for it. If there are no other ranges, then you should be aware of your line of fire and perhaps set up a short range target that is at least as high off the ground as the bench is. Had this fella done that, he would have been in compliance with all the range rules.

Before I end this post, I would like to admit that this shooter was not a bad guy. He was actually quite personable and polite. He was a stand up person. He was just doing what he had learned from his buddies or saw in movies. It can happen to any kind of shooter. My point is that it just seems to happen in the semi-auto club more than others. But he is now a safer shooter and more aware of his bullets and possibly even his brass!

 

[goodgrouper]

As far as what "starts my engine".......I enjoy all types of shooting......one of my favorites is long range shooting, not to the level that you practice it, but not everyone has the facilities or opportunities that you enjoy......personally, I enjoy everything from air rifles to 50 bmg and up.......

Me too. As I said earlier, I enjoy shooting black guns. Almost all my buddies have them and so does my uncle. I used one to kill one of my first p-dogs at 500 yards. If it goes boom, I like it. Because of this, I know most of the aspects of all the guns used and know what their downsides are.

I guess the bottom line is, don't judge a person based on what they brought to the range that day.......and don't assume that you are a more dedicated shooter because the stuff you have on your bench today is worth more than the stuff they have on the bench today.......they might have WAY more money invested in the equipment they left at home.....and, even if they don't, dedication isn't based on how much money a person spends on equipment.

I disagree with you on something in this paragraph. But before I get into that, I want to make it perfectly clear that I never meant that AR shooters aren't dedicated. My three gun/tactical buddies ARE VERY dedicated. They travel even farther than I do to compete in their matches and blow through way more ammo than I do at every one of them.

NOw, a dedicated shooter may or may not have lots of his gear at the range and it isn't a good indicator of how dedicated he is 100% of the time. However, if he has enough there to convince me that he knows what he is doing, then I would consider him dedicated and anyone who is dedicated themselves would know this because they would have had to be just as dedicated to recognize it. In other words, if I didn't know who Tony Boyer was, and saw him at the range with just a .22 lr and he was plinking, I wouldn't know if he was dedicated or not but it wouldn't matter becuase I would treat him with COURTESY. But if he was at the range and had a chronograph set up, cleaning gear, reloading gear, wind flags, a custom rifle and pedestal, I would be willing to bet he is pretty dedicated because I have the same gear and I'm dedicated. Therefore, I would be COURTEOUS to him and be even more CONSCIENTIOUS about what I was doing around him. In other words, if I was shooting a semi-auto, I would make sure I wasn't sending brass into his scope lenses and richoceting bullets into his windflags because I would have a harder time replacing a $2100 March scope and $300 worth of windflags than a $200 Ruger 10-22 had I damaged something. Make sense?