Berger vld load troubles

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by arrow, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. arrow

    arrow Well-Known Member

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    Let me start off with describing my new rifle:

    Remington 700 (trued/squared)
    Mcmillan htg adj stock
    broughton 5.75 24" 8 twist
    tub recoil lug
    jewel trigger
    american precision arms trigger guard
    badger rings/base
    leupold mark 4 4.5-14
    chambered .243 winchester

    I am set on shooting berger 105 vld with h4350 and a federal 210m. I'm sure there are other choices out there but i have read enough people using these components and getting their rifles to shoot with enough tweaking. So with this rifle, i was hoping for pretty consistent .25 moa groups at 100 yards. I haven't even tried 100 yards yet because i have heard the bergers need to be shot out farther to stabilize.

    I am using winchester .243 brass. I have trimmed all to length, uniformed the primer pockets, deburred the flash holes, and weight sorted.

    The barrel has been properly broken in and had just over 100 rounds through it at the start of this testing.

    Day 1: I went to the range to test seating length based off bergers recomendations. I started with 41 grains of h4350 and seating depths of .010, .050, .090, and .130 off lands. 5 shot groups each at 200 yards. none of the groups were that impressive but .090" was the best. I put 4 shots in about a 3/4" group and one flyer opened it up to about 2".

    Day 2: I used the .090" seating depth and tested 39.5, 40.0, 40.5, and 41.0 grains of h4350 and i chronoed each shot.

    39.5 g h4350: 2834, 2828, 2891, 2863, 2882 Average: 2860 ES: 63
    40.0 g h4350: 2886, 2906, 2869, 2919, 2923 Average: 2901 ES: 54
    40.5 g h4350: 2964, 2946, 2939, 2935, 2940 Average: 2945 ES: 29
    41.0 g h4350: 2950, 2921, 2908, 2946, 2964 Average: 2938 ES: 56

    41 grain load produced just over a 3/4" group with 4 rounds and a flyer opened it up to almost 3" group. This is the same load that produced the 3/4" group on day one but also with a horrible flyer. Also looking at the velocities it looks like 41 grains is pretty big spread. It had an ES of 56 but it was consistantly spread out over that distance where as 40.5 grains was very consistant with ES of 11 but one shot turned it to 29. So i was thinking that even though 41 grains of h4350 and seating depth of .090" shoots the best group, the velocities were kinda all over and both times testing it had extreme flyers. So it would seam that maybe there is an overpressure issue of some sort even though the brass isn't showing any. 40.5 grains shot a very uniform 5 shot group measuring about 1.25" which would be 5/8 MOA and the velocity was pretty consistant.

    Day 3: I used 40.5 grains h4350 for the charge and .090" seating depth to start with to fine tune the seating depth. Today I tested .070", .080", .090", .100", and .110" and assumed that I would get my final load today. Figured one of these groups would give me a uniform 1/4 to 3/8 MOA group. (1/2" to 3/4" at 200 yards)

    It was a little bit windy that day. Gusting between 7 o'clock and 5 o'clock. None of the groups where all that impressive, but .080" and .090" where noticeably better. The .080" measured about 1 5/8" and the .090" measured just under 1 1/2" group. Even if you take the wind out of it, the groups are still about the same.

    The rifle was cleaned between groups and fouler shots as well. the barrel was always allowed to cool. Shot with a front rest and rear sand sock. I had a custom built .308 on a 700 action with a 20" 7.1 contour broughton built by the same smith. with 175 smk and varget with just a little playing with powder charge i was shooting groups under 1/4" moa.

    So overall I am still not very satisfied with these results and feel like this gun is capable of better. I this about all i can really expect from winchester brass, not neck turning, not a tight neck chamber, and only a 5.75 contour barrel?
     
  2. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    I would try going up incrementally with my powder until I saw pressure (but don't stay at the pressure producing charge). Then try different primers. But still stay at 0.090, I'm betting that you'll see a better group as you go up with your charge and when you find which primer it likes you'll be all smiles. If it still doesn't want to work then try the 95gr Classic Hunter what would you have to loose at that point.

    Edit: never mind your already above max back off to 40.5 try different primers
     

  3. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    No pressure at 41g? If not take that and the .090 load and re shoot at 200 yards. Allow for barrel cooling. All the seating depth test is supposed to do is get you close which it did, and 1 flyer out of a 5 round group is not enough data to make any kind of assumption.

    Re shoot .090 off the lands at least four six round groups. Adjust from there, and remember you only adjust one variable at a time no more.
     
  4. rick523

    rick523 Well-Known Member

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    I found cci primers did away with the one flyer I always seemed to have also I'm only off the lands .002 and it pretty much shoots bug holes at 200yds.
     
  5. Gene

    Gene Well-Known Member

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    Haf inch groups at 100 yds is nothing to be ashamed of. Was the action trued?

    I shoot a lot of VLD's in competition, various calibers. VLD's can be very fussy about seating depth. I have found that, in general, they do better if jammed between .005" and .015". But your magazine length may make this impossible. If you can do it, try another ladder test with slight jamb. Compare ES and SD's with those you have obtained with jumping.
     
  6. AZShooter

    AZShooter Well-Known Member

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    After you have exhausted yourself trying all the variables drop the VLD and IMO go try the 105 hybrid. It is not seating depth sensitive like the VLD. You will gain in BC as the 105 hybrid has a BC of .547!

    I shoot the 105 hybrid in a 1 in 7.5 twist 6mm-284. Finding a load was too easy. It was seated to fit and feed from the wyatt's mag box in a SA rem 700. Jump to rifling is .065". All I did was manipulate the powder charge to get 1/2" groups at 200 yds.
     
  7. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    On another note I had the same experience with my 300 win mag and the 185 vld as the one you described. What I laid out above fixed it.
     
  8. arrow

    arrow Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the help. I tested different powder charges until i came up with 41.5 h4350 was a little bit sticky bolt. So I stuck to 41 max safe load for my gun. And even though 41 shoots pretty tight groups with .090" both groups i have shot with this load were some of the best so far out of this rifle exept that they both had a flyer way off from the group. Also be chronoing it seams that the ES pretty large and the velocity is completely spread over that range where as 40.5 grains is pretty consistant velocity and low ES and groups pretty well. So I think 40.5 H4350 with .090" seating depth is the most consitant load for my gun with those components, but it is still not what i am looking for for group size. So I am now thinking instead of using fed 210M primers try 2 groups of 3 shots each with each primer. Winchester large rifle, CCI large rifle, and CCI BR Large rifle. I will load up 40.5 h4350 and seat 105 vld .090" off lands and use these different primers. I will also be chronoing each load to check for ES as well as accuracy at 200 yards. Does this sound like a good approach?
     
  9. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    Don't dismiss Rem 9 1/2, I've had them make several loads work when I was about to give.:)
     
  10. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    YES but remember only change ONE thing at a time no more. I would try the BR2 primer .090 is where I found the sweet spot as well. I
     
  11. mt_archer

    mt_archer Well-Known Member

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    I have not used vld in 243, but shoot lots of them in other calibers. As much as I love them, I've learned not all rifles will shoot them, there may be another option. I am curious about one aspect of your load you didn't mention, or I didn't see, and that is runout. Do you check it? Some seating dies are much better than others for producing straight loads. I use the hornady tool that not only checks runout, but also allows you to straighten. That can certainly help with flyers. Your es may be an issue, but I find it to be pretty minor with high velocity rounds under 300 yards.