Why aren't you ready? I just bought 400 of them. I would like to know any data you have about them.
Berger Bullets Announces Launch of a New Ammo Company
- Thread starter Melesia.Cisneros
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Why aren't you ready? I just bought 400 of them. I would like to know any data you have about them.
Michael Courtney
Silver Member
See the screenshot of the distribution statement from the last paper. Due to contract obligations, non-disclosure agreements, and DoD rules, most of our research is subject to an approval process prior to publication. The approval process varies a bit over time, but our last BC paper required an internal peer-review by several DoD scientists, approval by my DoD chain of command, and then review by a DoD research office to ensure all the material was suitable for public release. I've been told more than once that no BC or terminal performance information on the M855A1 bullet will be approved for release. The powers that be have also made it clear that test results on products that may be fielded by the DoD in the future are less likely to be approved for release.
When I post BC numbers, they are from papers that have already been approved for public release. If we release the BC numbers on additional bullets, it will most likely be as a part of a larger paper that describes our experimental methods and results on a number of bullets as part of a larger work. Bullets that we are testing for possible military use will most likely be tested in multiple rifles and over a range of velocities. Consequently, it is imprudent to post online preliminary test results. Once we have a body of data sufficient for a paper, we usually write a paper and begin the public release approval process. After the paper is approved for public release, we can post data and openly discuss the relevant issues.
When bullets are testing below their manufacturer's specifications we also like to perform some additional work to determine why. We've done a lot of work the past few years quantifying the relationships between stability and drag, as well as developing experimental methods to detect whether higher drag than expected is the result of a large tip off angle when exiting the barrel and how quickly the pitch and yaw damp out. We've also done a lot of work over the past few years testing whether or not BCs (or drag coefficients) depend on air density. It turns out all the data Bob McCoy used to establish the independence of drag coefficients on air density was taken at Aberdeen Proving Ground, near sea level. No one had ever empirically tested whether drag coefficients or BCs measured at sea level would give accurate predictions at higher elevations. We may not apply all our tools and techniques to every bullet we test, but if there is sufficient interest, we have some unique tools available.
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elkaholic
Well-Known Member
Michael.......Have you done anything with the W3P challenge?........Rich
Blaze Orange
Member
I've been hunting elk well over 30 years, but new to the long range game.
Been looking into reloading but just don't have the time to get all the equipment shipped, set-up, and learn the ropes to get the results I need for the upcoming season. I'll be working 12 hour days right up to opening day.
Then there's trying to hunt down the different powders to try, primers, cases and projectiles in this era of hoarding. If I can't procure every single item I need, I'm dead in the water before load development and time at the range even begin. I would likely have to compromise on components because I won't be able to get what I actually want to work with.
Don't get me wrong, reloading appeals to me, but at this point I only have two months before I need to be in the field. The spare time I do have is spent figuring out my scope, rangefinder, wind meter, and improving my long-range marksmanship.
I'm thrilled that consistent, high quality ammunition geared to the long-range hunter is available to me with high BC Berger bullets. The fact that my hunting dollars will help support the supply of quality ammunition for our military snipers...even better.
Just ordered 5 boxes from ABM to get things dialed in.
Thank you Eric, Bryan, and Melesia for making this possible.
Been looking into reloading but just don't have the time to get all the equipment shipped, set-up, and learn the ropes to get the results I need for the upcoming season. I'll be working 12 hour days right up to opening day.
Then there's trying to hunt down the different powders to try, primers, cases and projectiles in this era of hoarding. If I can't procure every single item I need, I'm dead in the water before load development and time at the range even begin. I would likely have to compromise on components because I won't be able to get what I actually want to work with.
Don't get me wrong, reloading appeals to me, but at this point I only have two months before I need to be in the field. The spare time I do have is spent figuring out my scope, rangefinder, wind meter, and improving my long-range marksmanship.
I'm thrilled that consistent, high quality ammunition geared to the long-range hunter is available to me with high BC Berger bullets. The fact that my hunting dollars will help support the supply of quality ammunition for our military snipers...even better.
Just ordered 5 boxes from ABM to get things dialed in.
Thank you Eric, Bryan, and Melesia for making this possible.
5 boxes of which ammo?
Blaze Orange
Member
.300 Win Mag:
4 - 185gr Berger Match Classic Hunter
1 - 230gr Berger Match Hybrid Target
Hope the Classics shoot well out of my rifle. We'll see. The 0.547 bc beats the heck out of the 180gr Nosler Partitions I have at 0.349. I was trying to find out the MV for the Classics but I couldn't wait around anymore. Need to let some fly to see where I'm at. I'm more interested in consistency which is why I went ABM.
The ballistics on the 230 Hybrid are so amazing (0.743) I had to try a box even though the COAL of 3.6 means I'll be hand feeding them. 2850 MV is pretty respectable for 230gr. Lots of energy and retained velocity downrange. If these are as good as claimed, I'll re-work my mag box so I can run these through. I was interested in the 215 Hybrids as well but ABM doesn't load these...yet?
4 - 185gr Berger Match Classic Hunter
1 - 230gr Berger Match Hybrid Target
Hope the Classics shoot well out of my rifle. We'll see. The 0.547 bc beats the heck out of the 180gr Nosler Partitions I have at 0.349. I was trying to find out the MV for the Classics but I couldn't wait around anymore. Need to let some fly to see where I'm at. I'm more interested in consistency which is why I went ABM.
The ballistics on the 230 Hybrid are so amazing (0.743) I had to try a box even though the COAL of 3.6 means I'll be hand feeding them. 2850 MV is pretty respectable for 230gr. Lots of energy and retained velocity downrange. If these are as good as claimed, I'll re-work my mag box so I can run these through. I was interested in the 215 Hybrids as well but ABM doesn't load these...yet?
Michael Courtney
Silver Member
Notes on Weapon Employment Zone Analysis of Berger 230 grain Tactical Match Hybrid in XM-2010 Rifle
The analysis Bryan Litz published made two key assumptions in comparing the Berger 230 grain Tactical Match Hybrid with the 220 SMK load in his analysis.
The fist assumption was that the 230 grain bullet could be pushed to 2900 fps in a 26" barrel and 2800 fps in the 24" barrel of the XM-2010. As it turns out the AMB published spec is 2850 fps in a 26" barrel which probably yields closer to 2750 fps in the 24" barrel of the XM-2010.
The second assumption was that the 230 grain bullet would yield a G7 BC of 0.380 at sea level conditions in the 1 in 10" twist of the XM-2010 rifle. Since this was published in 2012 Bryan has revised his understanding of how stability impacts ballistic coefficient and his new stability calculator gives a G7BC of 0.361 at sea level conditions with a 1 in 10" twist. The calculator recommends a 9.25" twist for to achieve the full rated BC of this bullet.
These factors will undoubtedly combine to reduce the gap between the 220 SMK and the 230 Target Match Hybrid in the WEZ analysis.
One may further consider that our independent measurements of Berger ballistic coefficients has consistently yielded BCs 8% to 15% below Berger's published values. If the published BC of this bullet is also overly optimistic by 8% to 15%, the performance gap between the 220 SMK and the 230 Target Match Hybrid will be reduced even further.
It strikes me as unfortunate that the ABM web site lists performance specs for a loaded cartridge based on this bullet assuming a 26" barrel and sea level conditions, even though Bryan has established that the BC and downrange performance will be reduced under sea level conditions for a 1 in 10" twist.
The analysis Bryan Litz published made two key assumptions in comparing the Berger 230 grain Tactical Match Hybrid with the 220 SMK load in his analysis.
The fist assumption was that the 230 grain bullet could be pushed to 2900 fps in a 26" barrel and 2800 fps in the 24" barrel of the XM-2010. As it turns out the AMB published spec is 2850 fps in a 26" barrel which probably yields closer to 2750 fps in the 24" barrel of the XM-2010.
The second assumption was that the 230 grain bullet would yield a G7 BC of 0.380 at sea level conditions in the 1 in 10" twist of the XM-2010 rifle. Since this was published in 2012 Bryan has revised his understanding of how stability impacts ballistic coefficient and his new stability calculator gives a G7BC of 0.361 at sea level conditions with a 1 in 10" twist. The calculator recommends a 9.25" twist for to achieve the full rated BC of this bullet.
These factors will undoubtedly combine to reduce the gap between the 220 SMK and the 230 Target Match Hybrid in the WEZ analysis.
One may further consider that our independent measurements of Berger ballistic coefficients has consistently yielded BCs 8% to 15% below Berger's published values. If the published BC of this bullet is also overly optimistic by 8% to 15%, the performance gap between the 220 SMK and the 230 Target Match Hybrid will be reduced even further.
It strikes me as unfortunate that the ABM web site lists performance specs for a loaded cartridge based on this bullet assuming a 26" barrel and sea level conditions, even though Bryan has established that the BC and downrange performance will be reduced under sea level conditions for a 1 in 10" twist.
Michael Courtney
Silver Member
Barrelnut
Well-Known Member
Michael,
Simpleton question: I want to replace my worn (1 in 10 twist) 300 RUM 28" barrel and start running the 230 Bergers. Most shooting will be sea level to 3000 Feet. Does this me I should go 9.5 or 9.25 twist?
Thanks much. Appreciate the info here.
Michael Courtney
Silver Member
This is a tough call. The new info from Bryan seems to indicate you'll lose some BC in the higher BC bullet if you run a 1 in 10" barrel, but that you'll still get to 0.718 BC in the OTM bullet. The faster twist will also likely increase bore resistance and pressure, slightly reducing your velocity at a given pressure. If you really have your sights set on a BC of 0.743, the best available advice from Berger is to increase your rate of twist.
But I wouldn't go to a higher twist just for one bullet's slight advantage in BC. The advantage is less than 5% and gets smaller with altitude, velocity, and temperature. I'd call 0.7 good enough and work for consistent velocity and accuracy. If I couldn't get 0.7 to shoot I'd drop down to an AMAX or a 220 SMK.
When all is said and done, I'd be surprised if the 230 grain Bergers have much ballistic advantage at all over the 208 AMAX and the 220 SMK, so I do not think it would be worthwhile to spec a faster twist barrel for the one claiming a BC of .743.
