Are we too critical of modern bullets?

[WildRose]

I don't shoot into brush, and I have plenty of time to wait for an ideal shot and get my shot lined up exactly where I want it. Take my time. Breath. Exhale. Rease the beast...

Unless you're shooting something bigger than 30 cal and at close range shooting through any kind of brush is a really bad idea.

Even with 30 cal's I've seen deflections of over a foot when the target was within three feet of the offending branch etc.

Now if a guy is hunting grizzly bears or cape buffalo with an appropriate caliber such a deflection isn't likely to be a consideration.

A year or so ago I was check firing my .260 and just hung a target in a mesquite tree. My first shot struck a branch that was less than a 1/4" in diameter. The shot was dead on as the follow up showed yet the first shot was deflected by over 4".

With high velocity rounds such a strike can cause the bullet to flat explode showing the target with tiny bits of shrapnel and if the target was a deer or larger sized animal such a shot is going to result in a horribly wounded animal that is going to suffer a great deal.

If you don't learn anything else in sniper training it is not to push the shot or take a bad one unless it's a matter of life or death.

Those of us who hunt in brush a lot grow up learning to pick our holes and let the animal move into it and to time our shots such that they meet there.

 

[HARPERC]

MudRunner and WildRose I agree with what you're saying about brush shots, picking holes, waiting, and walking away from low percentage shots. I packed a .375 H&H for a long time, not because it mowed down brush, but because it's the best off hand rifle I ever owned.

What I could have said better is, if through the shoulders is what's exposed on whitetail I'll take it. The meat from there back is fine, and more than you might have waiting for behind the shoulder.

Our seasons are short and before the rut kicks in good. Our deer aren't as plentiful as some places, a season of 1, 2 if your lucky at the draw, and tend to have been hunted hard on public ground.

The shot you are willing to take is part of the parameters that need be included in bullet selection.

 

[WildRose]

MudRunner and WildRose I agree with what you're saying about brush shots, picking holes, waiting, and walking away from low percentage shots. I packed a .375 H&H for a long time, not because it mowed down brush, but because it's the best off hand rifle I ever owned.

What I could have said better is, if through the shoulders is what's exposed on whitetail I'll take it. The meat from there back is fine, and more than you might have waiting for behind the shoulder.

Our seasons are short and before the rut kicks in good. Our deer aren't as plentiful as some places, a season of 1, 2 if your lucky at the draw, and tend to have been hunted hard on public ground.

The shot you are willing to take is part of the parameters that need be included in bullet selection.

We're all guilty of not putting our thoughts on paper clearly from time to time.

MR and I are also from parts of the country where it can be real tough to get a good clean shot through brush or in his case swamp. Till one has spent some time here in Tx hunting the Mesquite, Cross Timbers, or Cedar country it's hard to appreciate it. I've also seen a great deal of Eastern Washington which at a casual glance appears to be wide open country but when you are on the ground looking at game through the tall sage you learn real quickly how brush it truly is and how difficult it can be to get a decent shot.

 

[mrb1982]

Yes we are. We should strive for better placement and knowing how our chosen bullet works best for our needs. And not so much blaming the bullet first. After all in most cases we loaded the ammo, chose the point of aim and puller the trigger. Each bullet has a place where it will excel, if we don't know that and use bad judgment we should carry a little responsibility on our own shoulders. It seems we expect an awful lot these days.

I agree we are lucky to have the many choices we do. Every single bullet will kill what we are after if we do a decent job on our end.

Jeff

About sums it up! You can shoot a massive bullet with a gabillion grains of powder behind it, but if you can't hit what you are aiming at doesn't matter. The bullet, like the shooter, isn't necessarily perfect all the time. The bullet tends to get blamed occasionally. I wonder if when we screw up and make a bad shot/miss, if the bullet is thinking, "Sure be nice if the genius behind the rifle would do his part." hahaha Because when I miss, that is generally what I am thinking! haha

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Unless you're shooting something bigger than 30 cal and at close range shooting through any kind of brush is a really bad idea.

Even with 30 cal's I've seen deflections of over a foot when the target was within three feet of the offending branch etc.

Now if a guy is hunting grizzly bears or cape buffalo with an appropriate caliber such a deflection isn't likely to be a consideration.

A year or so ago I was check firing my .260 and just hung a target in a mesquite tree. My first shot struck a branch that was less than a 1/4" in diameter. The shot was dead on as the follow up showed yet the first shot was deflected by over 4".

With high velocity rounds such a strike can cause the bullet to flat explode showing the target with tiny bits of shrapnel and if the target was a deer or larger sized animal such a shot is going to result in a horribly wounded animal that is going to suffer a great deal.

If you don't learn anything else in sniper training it is not to push the shot or take a bad one unless it's a matter of life or death.

Those of us who hunt in brush a lot grow up learning to pick our holes and let the animal move into it and to time our shots such that they meet there.

I had a bit of grass catch my bullets once on a deer at 250 yards or so with my 300win.
I was shooting at her from sitting and couldn't hit two rounds in a row.... thought the scope was garfed... stood up, settled in, and proceeded to put a hole through her slats. Bullets don't mow grass well nor do they break tree branches and hit the target well in the same shot.

 

[4xforfun]

Hell..Why we don't have self guided, in-flight adjustable bc/sd bullets with tracking devices on them is beyond me!!

 

[DENWA]

great topic!


My opinion. Yes we are too critical, but that's a good thing.

We should all strive to be the best, most deadly accurate shooters.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I have no problem with critiquing bullets. Especially with you guys because so many factors i would not think of end up getting brought to light. I think this is very productive process for us as hunters, target shooters, and bullet manufacturers alike. It also helps hunters tailor their loads to their needs or hunting style. Very valuable information, and a great opportunity to learn from someone elses experience.

The problem i have is unnecessary criticism. In my mind it serves no pupose, unless it catches manufacturers attention faster than respectable feedback. Its usually used to promote one product over another, or step on someone elses opinion and experience. Ive had my share of poorly placed shots and clean misses. Including a pig at 40yds, a hunting buddy has yet to let me live that one down. Its very easy to play the blame game or start looking at things that would of changed the outcome of a bad shot. Overall its our ability to self examine and make changes that push us to be better or more skilled shooters. This is what drives this industry to prosper and move forward.

 

[varmintH8R]

I have no problem with critiquing bullets. Especially with you guys because so many factors i would not think of end up getting brought to light. I think this is very productive process for us as hunters, target shooters, and bullet manufacturers alike. It also helps hunters tailor their loads to their needs or hunting style. Very valuable information, and a great opportunity to learn from someone elses experience.

The problem i have is unnecessary criticism. In my mind it serves no pupose, unless it catches manufacturers attention faster than respectable feedback. Its usually used to promote one product over another, or step on someone elses opinion and experience. Ive had my share of poorly placed shots and clean misses. Including a pig at 40yds, a hunting buddy has yet to let me live that one down. Its very easy to play the blame game or start looking at things that would of changed the outcome of a bad shot. Overall its our ability to self examine and make changes that push us to be better or more skilled shooters. This is what drives this industry to prosper and move forward.

Agree. But on an open forum, often the criticism (warranted or not) sparks strong technical debate and what you would deem valuable critique. There are tons of examples of this here. And in many cases, a reasonable OP who started with "this bullet sucks" ends up saying "I now better understand the limitations/applications of this bullet".

I will go out on limb and say most bullet companies aren't going to get their feelings hurt and quit making bullets based on the opinions of some Internet posters. Aside from some twisted panties and heated debates, I think the upside of highly critical "bullet fail" threads outweighs the downside. Anyone who reads one negative thread title and forms an immediate, irrevocable opinion of a bullet has issues that we ain't gonna solve on an Internet forum anyway.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Agree. But on an open forum, often the criticism (warranted or not) sparks strong technical debate and what you would deem valuable critique. There are tons of examples of this here. And in many cases, a reasonable OP who started with "this bullet sucks" ends up saying "I now better understand the limitations/applications of this bullet".

I will go out on limb and say most bullet companies aren't going to get their feelings hurt and quit making bullets based on the opinions of some Internet posters. Aside from some twisted panties and heated debates, I think the upside of highly critical "bullet fail" threads outweighs the downside. Anyone who reads one negative thread title and forms an immediate, irrevocable opinion of a bullet has issues that we ain't gonna solve on an Internet forum anyway.

Is the strong criticism necessary for the technical debate?
Can we have the problem, debate, and solution without bashing products and running off members or does it all go hand and hand? Can we find a solution in 10 pages of deep thought instead of 37 pages of drama?

I personally think its a mindset, and how we decide to approach each other with these scenarios. This forum is already far superior to others i frequent, and i definitely have more respect for the members here, and i hope i show it.

 

[varmintH8R]

Can we have the problem, debate, and solution without bashing products and running off members or does it all go hand and hand? Can we find a solution in 10 pages of deep thought instead of 37 pages of drama?

I don't think so, but not because of folks like you or 90% of the other open-minded, respectful members that post frequently. There are goofballs, idiots, nuts and trolls mixed in everywhere in the world. There is no way to exclude them. BUT, I have seen very informative, useful, and technical insight used to rebuff them - and in many cases if it weren't for the G,I,N, or T getting someone with some competence fired up, the information would not be shared (or re-shared from a long ago thread).

Not a perfect system - neither is our society!

Good topic BTW

Brandon

 

[DENWA]

I agree on the critical debate.

Problem is when "false info" that spreads rumors and pretty soon it gospel.

Too many "My friends" and "I've heard" on the old Inter-web!

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I don't think so, but not because of folks like you or 90% of the other open-minded, respectful members that post frequently. There are goofballs, idiots, nuts and trolls mixed in everywhere in the world. There is no way to exclude them. BUT, I have seen very informative, useful, and technical insight used to rebuff them - and in many cases if it weren't for the G,I,N, or T getting someone with some competence fired up, the information would not be shared (or re-shared from a long ago thread).

Not a perfect system - neither is our society!

Good topic BTW

Brandon

I suppose youre right. I guess we can just take what is there, approach everything like gentlemen and let everything else fall where it may.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I agree on the critical debate.

Problem is when "false info" that spreads rumors and pretty soon it gospel.

Too many "My friends" and "I've heard" on the old Inter-web!

This is something we see a lot of, and i think is unfortunate, but luckily we have some very talented marksmen here that do a fine job of setting things right.