Anyone know where 8208 powder is?

Its why I dont like charts.....
Sometimes you see one powder reversed from another one and different on different charts.. You dont really get a feel for how close or far apart things are on the chart, just relative.

8208 has a Ba of .625

Varget is very close at .615
and is temp insensitive.

My bet is Hodgdon which owns IMR is doing the same thing w 8208 it did with all the Endurons.

Shutting them down so they dont compete with their H extreme series products.
Sorry to burst your bubble....

Whilst IMR 8208 is marketed as an IMR powder, as others have said, it is made in Australia as part of the Hodgdon 'Extreme' line.

The closest to what I would call BM 8208 is either BM2 or AR2206H. That would be XBR8208, BENCHMARK and H4895 respectively.

AR2208 (Varget) is a bit slower than AR2206H (H4895) and has a much lower loading density (weight for volume).

I also use Quickload and it is a useful tool - but not an absolute.

You may want to look at this equivalence chart (published by the manufacturer).

And this article on production frequency.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble....

Whilst IMR 8208 is marketed as an IMR powder, as others have said, it is made in Australia as part of the Hodgdon 'Extreme' line.

The closest to what I would call BM 8208 is either BM2 or AR2206H. That would be XBR8208, BENCHMARK and H4895 respectively.

AR2208 (Varget) is a bit slower than AR2206H (H4895) and has a much lower loading density (weight for volume).

I also use Quickload and it is a useful tool - but not an absolute.

You may want to look at this equivalence chart (published by the manufacturer).

And this article on production frequency.
The key thing this chart says is this:

Note: This table shows only approximate equivalent values within about 5%. Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, firearm, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to lot.

So, if you have a lot of varget that's plus or minus 5% or a lot of H-4895 or IMR 8208 BXR thats plus or minus 5%, they can all be very close to
one another. The chart is not absolutely definitive as to burn rate or ranking.

But, I did very closely examine Varget, H-4895, and Imr 8208 BXR in Quick Load, and what I found is that the ranking by Ba from QL may in an instance where a powder has a very high deviation in Degressivity Factor AND the Ba factors are very close, may give mixed results.

The Degressivity Factor in QL accounts for the change in surface area of the powder granules as they burn. Varget has a very low Degressivity factor compared to 4895 and 8208. Therefore what I think is going on is even though Varget has a higher Ba factor in QL, it may in fact have a lower over all burn rate due to the shape of its granules and the effect that has on the surface area burning during ignition and over the time of the explosion.

So, depending on the lot, the primers used, the overall COAL and size bullet, the length of the barrel, and caliber loaded, the burn chart may vary and the Ba factor from QL may also not always be definitive as to ranking when the Ba's are very close ----but the powder shapes and burning characters are very different--- as in the grouping of 8208, H-4895, or Varget.

All of these factors are accounted for in QL, as you can see that both
H-4895 and 8208 BXR will predict higher velocities for the same grains of powder vs. Varget which will be slower, evidently due to its granule shape and burn degressivity character.

Its also why we use loading manuals with actual data to go by, and loads are worked from the bottom up. I personally still get more definition and appreciation for how close powders are to one another using the rankings out of QL but apparently powder shapes and burn characters can also affect those expectations too.
 
Mike Van Dyke

Customer Service Representative

Hodgdon Powder Company

6430 Vista Drive

Shawnee, Ks. 66218

913-362-9455 Ext. 109


Temperature Insensitive Powders
Benchmark
H1000
H322
H4198
H4350
H4831
H4831SC
H4895
H50BMG
IMR 8208 XBR
Retumbo
VARGET
IMR Enduron 4166= 308 Winchester, 7.62mm NATO, 22-250 Remington or 257 Roberts, among other cartridges.
IMR Enduron 4451 = 270 Winchester, 30-06 or 300 Winchester Short Magnum, among others.
IMR Enduron 7977 = 300 Winchester Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum and 338 Lapua, among other cartridges.
IMR Enduron 8133 = 6.5-300 Weatherby, 264 Win Mag, 28 Nosler and 300 Rem Ultra Mag, among other cartridges.
Thank you, good info!
 
...powder shapes and burn characters can also affect those expectations too.
The size of the granule, the type and amount of coating, the micro fissures within the granule are the things that change burn rate, reaction of that burn rate to pressure and heat, and volume are the things that products like Quickload seek to model. FWIW AR2209 and AR2217 (H4350 and H1000 respectively) are identical to look at - exactly the same size. Burn rate, temperatures and pressure reaction are quite different.

The short version is, don't just use Ba as it will lead you astray. Progressivity (and all else in the right sub-window), and case capacity and weighting factor all affect how a chemical composition will burn in a given volume. It annoys me when people say 'play with Ba to match measured velocity' as the model is far more complex than that.

Having worked with those powders for more than 40 years (back when 2206 and 2210 were a thing) the closest you will get to 8208 is BM2, but it is a little faster.

8208 was a batch worked up to deliver the best burn characteristics for 5.56 ammunition in the F88 AUSSteyr, and subsequently the F89 Minimi. When Hodgdon sought a certain set of characteristics to match the old Thunderbird powder, the factory at Mulwala was able to reach into the records and find a composition with matching characteristics.

8208 is still being made, but at a reduced capacity due to other pressures on the facility (it is a government owned facility, operated by Thales, and is responsive first to the demands of the Australian government).
 
The size of the granule, the type and amount of coating, the micro fissures within the granule are the things that change burn rate, reaction of that burn rate to pressure and heat, and volume are the things that products like Quickload seek to model. FWIW AR2209 and AR2217 (H4350 and H1000 respectively) are identical to look at - exactly the same size. Burn rate, temperatures and pressure reaction are quite different.

The short version is, don't just use Ba as it will lead you astray. Progressivity (and all else in the right sub-window), and case capacity and weighting factor all affect how a chemical composition will burn in a given volume. It annoys me when people say 'play with Ba to match measured velocity' as the model is far more complex than that.

Having worked with those powders for more than 40 years (back when 2206 and 2210 were a thing) the closest you will get to 8208 is BM2, but it is a little faster.

8208 was a batch worked up to deliver the best burn characteristics for 5.56 ammunition in the F88 AUSSteyr, and subsequently the F89 Minimi. When Hodgdon sought a certain set of characteristics to match the old Thunderbird powder, the factory at Mulwala was able to reach into the records and find a composition with matching characteristics.

8208 is still being made, but at a reduced capacity due to other pressures on the facility (it is a government owned facility, operated by Thales, and is responsive first to the demands of the Australian government).
What factors do you use in QL to history match chrono velocity?
 
The size of the granule, the type and amount of coating, the micro fissures within the granule are the things that change burn rate, reaction of that burn rate to pressure and heat, and volume are the things that products like Quickload seek to model. FWIW AR2209 and AR2217 (H4350 and H1000 respectively) are identical to look at - exactly the same size. Burn rate, temperatures and pressure reaction are quite different.

The short version is, don't just use Ba as it will lead you astray. Progressivity (and all else in the right sub-window), and case capacity and weighting factor all affect how a chemical composition will burn in a given volume. It annoys me when people say 'play with Ba to match measured velocity' as the model is far more complex than that.

Having worked with those powders for more than 40 years (back when 2206 and 2210 were a thing) the closest you will get to 8208 is BM2, but it is a little faster.

8208 was a batch worked up to deliver the best burn characteristics for 5.56 ammunition in the F88 AUSSteyr, and subsequently the F89 Minimi. When Hodgdon sought a certain set of characteristics to match the old Thunderbird powder, the factory at Mulwala was able to reach into the records and find a composition with matching characteristics.

8208 is still being made, but at a reduced capacity due to other pressures on the facility (it is a government owned facility, operated by Thales, and is responsive first to the demands of the Australian government).
In your opinion where would Thunderbird 2202 fit in compared to 8208?
 
What factors do you use in QL to history match chrono velocity?
First I setup the weighting factor for the case, it is probably more of an OCD thing than practical.

Ba is an adjustment,
but so is a0 and b
whilst z1 tends to be static, on particularly large charges or long barrels you may find a better match across a string of loads as you work up from low to high, and this will invoke b a little more.

Doesn't seem you have the model tweaked right if you are only matching the velocity at your chosen charge weight, but 0.5gn either side is off. Match the predictions across a workup range of 5% of charge weight (2.5gn for a 50gn charge) and you will have a better model.
 

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