40 Hart vs 338 Allen mag.

Discussion in 'Extreme Long Range Hunting & Shooting (ELR)' started by snox801, Nov 23, 2013.

  1. snox801

    snox801 Well-Known Member

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    In I'm the market for the baddest long range weapon for elk and whatever else is unlucky. So after searching the internet machine I was unable to find any comparisons of these two weapons. What do you guys with more knowledge think. A little compare and contrast if you will.
     
  2. MMERSS

    MMERSS Well-Known Member

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    I think the “baddest” extreme long range weapon for elk is your mind. The biggest and “baddest” can sometimes just get one into bigger and “badder” trouble if they can’t properly use the system ELR. And just the same they can get you out of trouble just as likely. If you can answer the details about what you would be gaining with a cartridge such as the 338AM over your current hunting cartridge then you are well on your way. I would ask you this, what benefits will you be gaining with a 338AM over say a 338AX for elk hunting or any other big game hunting? There is good "hunting" discussion of comparison and contrast just between these two cartridges.
     

  3. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Darn good statement!

    Thinking big is a trait I can't grow out of. When deciding between to big guns I went with the 375 Allen Mag over the 338 Allen Mag. For use on game I gained nothing more than 50 grains of bullet weight. Not one iota of difference other than that.

    Shot opportunities have proven that the 338AX would be sufficient for anything I could ever stumble across.

    However, now that I have the 375 I'm done looking. Kind of a peaceful feeling.
     
  4. SidecarFlip

    SidecarFlip Well-Known Member

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    Me, I'll take a Bradley or an M1A1 myself. Both have bad asses guns and both have heat and a comfortable seat.:D

    Why walk when you can drive.....
     
  5. snowpro440

    snowpro440 Well-Known Member

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    I would Buy the .308 or .338 cal in one of Kirby's configurations for long range shooting because of the Accuracy first, then availability of good brass an bullets. Accuracy being the most important then size/energy.
     
  6. MMERSS

    MMERSS Well-Known Member

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    They sure are impressive systems, except for the seat part....I'm not so sure about that!:)
     
  7. TH

    TH Well-Known Member

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    Get the 338 Allen mag. Faster flatter more energy better bullets. There is no need to shoot over a 300 grain bullet. If you want the biggest and baddest with the most energy get a 50bmg. Or a 50/20 Anzio
     
  8. SidecarFlip

    SidecarFlip Well-Known Member

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    My point was... You might as well drive because you get a kahoona rifle and it's so heavy you won't want to carry it anyway.

    Now if you have the wherewithall, you can enlist the services of a 'rifle porter' to carry it.

    Strictly, IMO, it becomes an exercise in lightweight versus compatibility for a given situation.

    Myself, I prefer light and I always take that into consideration first.
     
  9. timeless61

    timeless61 Well-Known Member

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    Between these two, I would go with the 338 Allen Mag, the comparison really isn't that similar.

    From what I was told, the 40 Hart was a necked up 375 Ultra Mag, and it was meant to shoot a rather specific Cutting Edge bullet.

    Also, from what I have read and experienced, I would rather have Allen build me a rifle.
     
  10. snox801

    snox801 Well-Known Member

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    Hey thanks for the info. I was leaning towards am but always want to check my options I want that peace of mind feeling by knowing I'm done buying large caliber guns. I also know a 338 lapua will get the job done but I like having a bigger gun than my friends.
     
  11. snox801

    snox801 Well-Known Member

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    What are you referring to here from what I know they both offer excellent and very accurate rifles. Any input would be helpful. Like I said I believe I will go with Kirby just want all my options.
     
  12. MMERSS

    MMERSS Well-Known Member

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    Indeed:D I can still feel and hear the 350's impact after shot from your AM this summer in Townsend.

    Several friends are aware I have a 338AM that’s been in the works for the past two years. It’s an interesting discussion when they ask how much more range this will increase my hunting probabilities. When I reply in all practicality based off my most likely hunting conditions about 200 yards more over my 338LM, they kind of look at me funny. Cheytac parent case, 140+ gr powder, only 200 yards more than the 338LM what the heck!

    Using the 338LM, 338AX. 338AM and 375AM as comparison. Assume all are capable of equals, that is same precision potential of .5 MOA or better, same muzzle variation of 15 fps or there about, and shoot equally under the same environmental conditions.

    Using an air density equivalent of 3000ft DA and the following on a ballistics engine:

    338LM, Berger 300 OTM, 2800 fps- red line
    338AX, Berger 300 OTM, 3000 fps-orange line
    338AM, Berger 300 OTM, 3400 fps-yellow line
    375AM, SMK 350, 3300 fps-green line

    View attachment Energy.pdf
    Exploring energy, all are capable of producing 1500 ft/lbs at 1300 yards or beyond. Totally capable harvest energies for elk at these ranges.

    Therefore, considering everything equal and sufficient energy, wind uncertainty is what limits maximum effective range. In most of my hunting conditions its not uncommon to be shooting around a 1.5MPH full value equivalent crosswind uncertainty. Assuming correct application for an accurate firing solution, I will apply an error equivalent to 7” of drift for wind uncertainty for an elk sized target. Just for wind alone, this leaves 7” left and 7” right or 14” potential variation just for wind uncertainty. Now you have to consider your precision potential combined with wind uncertainty but for this another topic.

    Looking at the 1.5MPH crosswind chart and 7” of wind drift, MY comfortable maximum effective range for each cartridge:
    View attachment 1.5 wind.pdf
    338LM, 1000 yards
    338AX, 1100 yards
    338AM, 1200 yards
    375AM, 1150 yards

    So for my comfort levels, and most likely hunting conditions encountered, the 338AM only adds 200 yards to my maximum effective ranges compared to the 338LM and only 100 yards over the 338AX.

    With a 2MPH uncertainty and using the same criteria:
    View attachment 2mph.pdf
    338LM, 900 yards
    338AX, 950 yards
    338AM, 1050 yards
    375AM, 1000 yards

    With a 1MPH uncertainty and using the same criteria:
    View attachment 1mph.pdf
    338LM, 1200 yards
    338AX, 1275 yards
    338AM, 1425 yards
    375AM, 1350 yards

    So where does one start to consider the advantages of the 338AM outweighing the advantages of a 338AX? I can see definite advantages when conditions are very predictable, but how often does this happen with my hunting conditions, not very. Therefore in my opinion will a 338AX with a lighter platform, better mobility, easier brass accessibility, better overall range capability such as short to long range hunting shots, and overall longevity to barrel life as compared to the 338AM accomplish 90% of my hunting shots. Yep. The 338AM will only extend my ranges by a few hundred yards in all practicality and many more under ideal conditions. Additionally the 338AM will shoot rocks a looooooong way out there, something my 338LM is not capable of.

    There are advantages and disadvantages with every choice. We just need to be aware of them and ensure they fit what we intend to use them for. Bigger and “badder” not appropriately employed has little advantage if any at all over more reasonable, lighter, usable and efficient applied appropriately.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  13. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    MMERSS,

    Well stated and verified. I like the graphs.

    I wonder if the 375 has a bit longer bbl life. If measured in harvested animals and years it may. If measured in number of shots, I wonder. Trying to justify my purchase. :D

    My experience has been that with better bullet design better things will happen. Offerings in 375 are somewhat limited. The 350 SMK was/may be the top of the heap, all things considered. But. . .

    I figure some innovative person will come along and prove up on the 375 offerings.

    The latest is Cutting Edge. Long talk with the boss @ CE resulted in the recommendation of the 352 offering. A little less expensive. Same bullet as the 350 Hunting offering.

    His basis is the shooters with the 375 CheyTac as this is the bullet they settled on.

    His mind was a little blown with what the 375 AM will do with the 350 offering. Maybe as much as 150 - 200 FPS over the Chey.

    The point I'm trying to make is that it is gonna take a ton of work to outdo the 338 caliber which ever way you look at it.

    The 300 Berger is on the shelves, for the most part which is a key consideration.
     
  14. MMERSS

    MMERSS Well-Known Member

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    Looking down the road three or four years from now I may need a new barrel on the 338AM. Hopefully there are better 375 bullets by then. My current batch of brass should be shot and new ones needed along with a new barrel.

    Any guesses on which dies I will have up for sale and what new chamber and dies will be requested?

    You're just thinking farther ahead than I am right now!!!!:D