300 Win MAG to the brink?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by DENWA, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. DENWA

    DENWA Well-Known Member

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    After listening to 2 fools at the local shop talk about that show BOTW. I did some looking.

    They claim the 7mm Mag is better than the 300Mag ( or RUM for that Matter) at long distances. And back this with single point of data. (which got me thinking)
    They make all these claims on the fact that berger makes a 180gr .284 bullet with superman BC's.

    Questions:

    1. Is there a trade off point with the 300Win Mag where heavier bullet( Higher BC) starts to loose out to loss in initial velocity? I.E. 180gr traveling at 3100fps vs. 210gr at 2850fps.

    2. Using the above logic couldn't all cartridges be compared on their "absolute best" combination of Highest BC bullet and velocity combo for longest range performance?

    Possibly set a score system to find the distance at which terminal energy drops below 1000 ft-lbs as a universal end point?


    Does this make any sense?
     
  2. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    I own and shoot both the 300 WM and the 7mm Rem Mag.

    With 210 Berger VLDs in the 300 WM and 168 VLDs in the 7mm RM, I agree the 7mm Rem Mag has a slight ballistic advantage in that it starts with a higher muzzle velocity, has a slightly greater BC, which results in the 168 VLDs maintaining higher velocity at long range (1000 to 1100 yds). After bullet velocity decreases to below ~1700 fps, I believe I lack sufficient velocity to ensure bullet expansion on impact. That's how I reach my conclusion. The 7mm Rem Mag retains expansion velocity about 100 yds farther down range than my 300 WM. Both rounds have enough energy to drop an elk at extreme long range provided the bullets expand on impact.

    However a 300 RUM will spank the 7mm Rem Mag no matter which way you analyze it. Expansion velocity retained to greater yardage and more retained energy as well.
     

  3. FEENIX

    FEENIX Well-Known Member

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  4. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    Most of the realy long range guys are turrent twisters and look for maximum down range
    energy and accuracy.

    Velocity and trajactory does play a part but in the end they chose energy at POI, wind bucking
    ability and accuracy at longest yardages to be hunted.

    I don't have the skills or the equiptment to ''HUNT'' much past 1500yrds so I use the ''Taylor
    Knock Out Value '' system for the best results.==1000 ft/lbs for deer size game and 1500ft/lbs
    for elk size game. with these numbers you can add or subtract based on the game to be
    hunted (IE, Moose would require 2000 ft/lbs)for clean one shot kills.

    You can kill all game with less energy but the results will vary more from shot to shot.

    Armed with this information use ballistic charts that will go past your intended distance and
    look at max distance to reach energy levels required for the game to be hunted and which
    caliber and bullet combo is the best.

    In other words if I go elk hunting and have a choice of rifles that will take an elk down hard
    I would chose any 338 my next choice would be one of the big 30s and next would be a
    magnum 7mm.

    You can never have to much rifle only to little.

    This process will separate the groupies from the rock stars.

    Just the way I approach this decision.

    J E CUSTOM
     
  5. DENWA

    DENWA Well-Known Member

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    According to BOTW's True ballistic calculator:


    1. 7mm Mag pushing a 168gr berger(.648BC) at 3000fps has at 1200 yds:

    1200yds1503.7fps843.3ft-lbs88.8wind


    2. 7mm Mag pushing a 180gr berger(.698BC) at 2800fps has at 1200 yds:

    1200yds1457.9fps849.3ft-lbs89.2 wind

    3. 300 Win Mag pushing a 210gr Sierra (.645BC) at 2800fps has at 1200 yds:

    1200yds1376.5fps883.4ft-lbs99.2 wind

    4. 300 Win Mag pushing a 240gr Sierra (.702BC) at 2600fps has at 1200 yds:

    1200yds1340.2fps957.1ft-lbs98.9wind


    Am I Confused? Or a little off on initial velocities?

    I don't see a super difference here. to substantiate any claims of superiority.
     
  6. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    You would have to provide your definition of superior, in order to receive a meaningful response.

    Your data demonstrates that the bullets fired from the 7mm RM retain higher velocity at long range than the bullets fired in the 300 WM. Which is why I claim the 7mm RM is effective for ~100 additional yards compared to the 300 WM. Impact velocity is critical to ensure expansion of hunting bullets that are designed to expand in game animals. Bullet expansion helps to ensure the bullet's energy is spent on the animal, rather than on the hillside behind the animal. If the bullet doesn't expand and all the bullet's energy is spent impacting the dirt on the far side of the animal, you better be really good at following blood trails.

    If you're going to shoot animals with expanding-style bullets impacting at ~1350 fps, you better aim for their brain or central nervous system. If you can hit them in the brain or central nervous system @ 1200 yds you're all set.

    Do you normally use full metal jacketed or other non-expanding bullets to shoot big game animals?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2009
  7. DENWA

    DENWA Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. That explaination makes good sense to me.

    I'm a man of science and common sense, not conjecture.

    This type of insight is priceless.
     
  8. RockyMtnMT

    RockyMtnMT Official LRH Sponsor

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    Google this: Shooting holes in wounding theories. If you are analytical then you will be able to read it, if not you will not get through it. It is physics.

    Steve
     
  9. DENWA

    DENWA Well-Known Member

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    I just get sick of everyone "hearing" something is better when really where does the proof come in?


    I really appreciate everyones input.

    Thanks
     
  10. Chuck Boyer

    Chuck Boyer Active Member

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    Ru shooting at game or paper? Paper get a 6.5mm. for long range. The f-class boys prove that fact. I would much rather have a 210 Berger at impact than a 168 7mm. There is no substitute for horsepower. I have used both.
     
  11. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    At equal impact velocity so would I. But do you prefer the 210 if it drills through the animal unexpanded while the 168 expands within the animal? I'll take an expanded 168 over an unexpanded 210 any day.
     
  12. Chuck Boyer

    Chuck Boyer Active Member

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    The 210 Berger is a great hunting bullet. I use it in a 300 Win Sendero with a load recommended by Walt Berger using RL-22 powder. I have not had any expansion issues with this bullet under 400 yds. I have not shot a deer with this bullet further than that yet. So far every deer shot has had a complete pass through with a large exit hole. This bullet will ruin alot of meat. I use it because I do not like to blood trail.
     
  13. DENWA

    DENWA Well-Known Member

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    So wouldn't the Sierra 210gr be better in this situation since it has a thinner jacket?
     
  14. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    At 400 yds, either bullet will be deadly. I didn't know the 210 had a thinner jacket, but maybe it does.

    At 1000 to 1100 yds, my contention is the 7mm RM 168 is deadlier than the 300 WM 210, because the 168 is more likely to expand in the animal due to it's higher remaining impact velocity at those extended ranges.