.300 Norma vs .338 lapua Rem action

[snox801]

Ok so I've seen many threads stating that you shouldn't build a lapua based round on a rem 700 style action.
Now my question is why if you use an aftermarket action like the pierce ti, think lone peak .338 ti. Same style. Why not?
Let's base them all on operating pressure of 65,000. I understand the force of the large base and thinner bolt areas. But that being said why are some many ok with building a .300 Norma on it? Same size head. Same pressure of 65,000. What would be the difference? The action would not know what round is creating the 65,000. And for more apples let's say a .338 Norma.
Also why the absolutely NO responses for a lapua improved on the action. Wouldn't you still be limited to the same pressure?
Say you do it like normal load till you find the first sign of pressure based on brass. Wouldn't the brass give those at the same pressure? You are just adding more powder like every other improved it doesn't raise pressure by doing this.
That leads me to why would a .338 lapua improved be worse than a .338 Norma improved on a 700 clone?
Keep in mind I'm no gunsmith and this is just conversations I've been witnessing more than once. So I'd like to be informed before adding my two cents. Do t wanna be that guy.
I've heard Kirby day they are safe at standard pressure and speeds but because the lapua brass is so strong it's easy to mask pressure. Is that the only way?
Thanks
FYI I've been toying with building a look alike of my light 6.5 creed light weight.
I have several.338 lapua improved with one just for fire forming brass. Hence the want for a .338 improved. I don't plan on pushing it harder than I should.

 

[Edd]

https://bordenrifles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/338_lapua.pdf

 

[snox801]

I've seen that and yes it makes sense but on the other side of the coin many well known smith and action makers will build and say it's perfectly safe. In fact pierce has one that's on a third barrel win no issue. Heck even Remington makes them on a factory 700 action. So it has to be safe when loaded correctly.
My question is why are people ok doing a .338 Norma mag same dia as the lapua as far as bolt face. Running same safe pressures. I've found multiple builders say no you shouldn't on the lapua but say ya perfectly fine for a Norma. All things equal like .338 300gr pill both loaded to say 65,000 safe pressure why is one ok and not the other. Is it a gut instinct or should they have the same concerns with the Norma?

 

[Edd]

...My question is why are people ok doing a .338 Norma mag same dia as the lapua as far as bolt face. ..... why is one ok and not the other. ....

If you ask that question to those who say one is ok and the other one isn't, I think the answer you get won't sound very smart.

 

[snox801]

That's kinda what I'm getting at. Not trying to stir the pot just trying to get a grasp on why so many Norma's are built on that footprint. Granted some beef things up a bit with threads and a bit longer action.
Just kinda seems weird I'm sure like Kirby stated that a rem 700 would be fine if used at standard pressure just easy to push to hard on that case. He recommended staying at a safe velocity because brass won't show till way to late.
So I'm assuming that a aftermarket action would be just fine if ran at safe speeds.
This is really more for me to learn.
Lots of personal opinions and less about factual data.
Like how many people said I shouldn't build a lapua improved on a savage action made for a lapua. It runs the same safe pressure as the standard lapua juts hold more powder. That lets me feed longer barrels.

 

[CA48]

There are plenty of Norma's/Lapua's built on 700s. They will run fine at normal pressures. But you leave yourself with a narrow saftey buffer if any, if cases are over loaded caused from say a scale drifting or when guys will do initial pressure testing. The argument that a Norma is ok and a Lapua is not will be a somewhat mute point if both are ran at the same pressures. I think some people's reasoning behind this with an improved Lapua is that it adds to the risk factor by using more powder hence more thrust if things were to go South. On 700's where the feed ramp is cut just behind the bottom bolt lug it doesn't leave near as much material to get the support that the top lug does. I thought about it myself years ago and decided against building on a 700 but I'm not going to tell someone they are wrong or stupid for building on one, but you do assume higher risks. I myself want zero doubt in my mind when I am shooting a rifle in case something goes wrong. Especially when my family is shooting that rifle too. I know a Rem 700 can be set up cheaper but if I were to do it would be like this.

Donor action $400
Gre tan fpa 150
Ptg bolt 150
Badger knob 30
Bolt fluting 50
Blueprinting 200
Recoil lug 30
Base 100
Cerakoting 100

That's $1210 total. I'm pretty sure you can get a nitrided Kelby atlas cheaper with the recoil lug and base included. So if I do build something on a .590 case head I will use a custom action and even some of those are questionable for the Lapua/Norma case which has been revealed from measuring lug set back. As I said it could be done cheaper using s 700 thats just the way I look at. Not everyone will see it that way.

I can easily see why a smith wouldn't want to build on a 700. Why risk your career or someone's life by building one for a customer that you have never shot with or know how experienced they are when it comes to their reloading practices.

As far as the factory 700 338 Lapuas. I don't think they are just normal ol 700s. I remember seeing somewhere where a guy took measurements on his and the bolt lugs had .050" more material therefore using larger bolt lugs than a normal magnum receiver. I believe the factory savage lapuas have larger lugs as well but have never measured either myself.

If you do decide to build off a 700 you will be better off using a chrome moly action vs the stainless steel action going off Kirby's testing from his 7mm AM on a rem 700.

 

[snox801]

This is what I was looking for. This type of debate. I had no intention of building on a 700. I would use a custom built ti rem clone. Looking at the pierce ti.

 

[Edd]

I think a cartridge with that large of a diameter needs a 1.125" diameter tenon thread. I think a 1.125" tenon thread need a receiver with a diameter larger than 1.350". If I could choose only one, it would be the larger tenon diameter.

 

[Rhovee]

Bat makes a HR with 1.125 and still 1.350. They use a harder steel than most. Standard 700 long action inlet.

 

[Edd]

Bat makes a HR with 1.125 and still 1.350. They use a harder steel than most. Standard 700 long action inlet.

I have one of those actions.

 

[Rhovee]

Me to. By far the best action I have used. Especially in a Lapua/Norma .575 bolt.

 

[FURMAN]

I am not a gunsmith so I can't say one way or another. I will tell you smiths I trust have reported lug setback with non Lapua actions with known low pressure loads. The larger case head provides much more bolt thrust. What I will offer from my standpoint is I can find a way to gather a couple hundred dollars to get what I personally would consider safe but I can not buy another finger, eye, or life. Is it really worth the couple hundred dollars?

 

[Edd]

I am not a gunsmith so I can't say one way or another. I will tell you smiths I trust have reported lug setback with non Lapua actions with known low pressure loads. The larger case head provides much more bolt thrust. What I will offer from my standpoint is I can find a way to gather a couple hundred dollars to get what I personally would consider safe but I can not buy another finger, eye, or life. Is it really worth the couple hundred dollars?

What action would you buy with that extra 200 dollars? I only know of two actions that I would consider suitable for a 338 Lapua and I don't like either one of them.

 

[FURMAN]

What action would you buy with that extra 200 dollars? I only know of two actions that I would consider suitable for a 338 Lapua and I don't like either one of them.

Take it with a grain of salt as I am not a Lapua guy but I am currently building my 338 Terminator on a Terminus Helios with the 1.1 threads. Yes, I know it is a little more money.

https://www.terminusactions.com/product/helios/