I was wondering since berger tested their match bullet out and then called it a hunting bullet, isn;t SMK the built in a very simlar style?? I was just wondering, I seen some guys useing 240gr SMK for hunting, but Sierra doesn't list them as a hunting bullet.gun)lightbulb
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J E Custom
Well-Known Member
I think they actually changed the jacket for the hunting bullets but kept the same shape.
Maybe some of the Berger experts will chime in.
J E CUSTOM
dirtball
Well-Known Member
Berger's original bullets were built using standard J4 jackets. When people started having problems with them blowing up on the way to the target (Paper or Game) in the more powerful rifles, Berger came out with the Thick Jacket or "Target" bullet.
So the original bullets are called the "Hunting" version and the newer Thick Jackets are called "Target" bullets.
The Sierra Match Kings are (I believe) built with an even thicker and tougher jacket that the Berger Target bullets, at least in my experience the SMK's stay together when the others will not.
Brian/Eric, correct me if I an wrong.
Dave
So the original bullets are called the "Hunting" version and the newer Thick Jackets are called "Target" bullets.
The Sierra Match Kings are (I believe) built with an even thicker and tougher jacket that the Berger Target bullets, at least in my experience the SMK's stay together when the others will not.
Brian/Eric, correct me if I an wrong.
Dave
@ Dirtball.. If I understand you right your saying the thicker jackets are the target bullets.. Are the Smk's better for hunting then the bergers?? I have a 30-378 I would like to load 240 SMK for deer ,but I was told you couldn't use this bullet for hunting. I just want to be safe.
sniperjwt
Well-Known Member
I have shot both the SMK and Berger target bullets this summer at groundhogs. The distances have been between 60-210yards. Both open up and blow up the opposite side of the groundhog. I have not had one yet that just went right through and not opened up. The bullets i have used are the 115 Berger .257 dia and the .308 dia 175 SMK.
sniperjwt
Well-Known Member
I did shoot a doe last year at 300yds with a Berger Hunting bullet. The damage looked to be the same as all the ones i have killed and seen killed with the Berger Target bullets. I have not used the SMKs on deer as of yet but i plan on it this year. I am going on a texas dall ram hunt next month and the 168 SMK is the bullet i will be useing out of my 300WSM. I have done lots of test shooting into media and have been impressed with the damage and penatration is not that of a bullet that would hold together "too good". Shot the same media with a solid bullet and it went completely through.
retiredcpo
Well-Known Member
One thing I do not understand
IF berger was having a problem with the target bullets coming apart before getting to the target and created the thicker bullet(target) to solve this problem then renamed the thinner bulllet a hunting bullet
Why are we not hearing lots of complaints about the bullets coming apart still?
Something about this has allways been fishy to me
Bullets come apart before getting to the target change the name to a hunting bullet and problem sloved?
retiredcpo
IF berger was having a problem with the target bullets coming apart before getting to the target and created the thicker bullet(target) to solve this problem then renamed the thinner bulllet a hunting bullet
Why are we not hearing lots of complaints about the bullets coming apart still?
Something about this has allways been fishy to me
Bullets come apart before getting to the target change the name to a hunting bullet and problem sloved?
retiredcpo
kiwi3006
Well-Known Member
Dirtball has it the right way round, the Bergers called "target" do have a thicker jacket. The hunting bullets are their original jacket bullet.
One of the reasons the SMK's are not recommend for hunting is to do with the Geneva convention. Boss Hoss has posted a link on here http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/smk-24326/index2.html
that basically says by keeping the SMK designated a target bullet allows the military to use them without getting in trouble with the geneva convention.
Stu.
One of the reasons the SMK's are not recommend for hunting is to do with the Geneva convention. Boss Hoss has posted a link on here http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/smk-24326/index2.html
that basically says by keeping the SMK designated a target bullet allows the military to use them without getting in trouble with the geneva convention.
Stu.
There is your answer plain and simple, don't see them giving up a military contrract to pick up the hunting crowd.
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
Hey Guys,
Might have a few answers here that may help resolve this one. Yes, the Berger Target bullets have the new, thicker jackets; the old style bullets, with the thinner jackets are now dubbed as their Hunting bullets. They are unchanged and completely identical to the old style Bergers you've been using for years. The stresses that competitive shooters put on their rifles is considerably greater than most hunting applications, in terms of numbers of rounds fired, conditions within the bore, that sort of thing. The problems were first noted by competitive shooters, and it was to correct these concerns that Berger did the redesign. I've heard and/or seen very few problems since then, so the issue appears to have been resolved. In the hunting world, we're not firing til the barrels too hot to touch, or running a hundred rounds or more between cleanings, both of which are quite common for match shooting. The bore history has a great deal to do with this as well, and I'd suspect that most of the posters on these boards keep theirs in pretty decent condition. I served as an instructor at Small Arms Firing School at the Nationals this year, and saw a brutal first-hand example of this. Hornady was kind enough to have provided the ammo, their 75 grain BTHP for the shooters, and CMP/AMU provided the M16A2s for the course. We had world class problems with bullets coming apart in flight throughout the school on Viale Range. They used exactly the same ammo for the USMC advanced SAFS course being taught over on Rodriguez Range (where the students providedtheir own match-grade Service rifles) and had virtually zero problems. I had no blow ups with the rifle on my point, while the one next to me was a huge problem. The issue wasn't with the ammo at all, but with the condition of the rifles they were used in. This particular bunch of rifles (most of 'em anyway) were long overdue for a new barrel, which would have likely solved the problem entirely. Don't sweat it and use the Hunting bullets, thin jackets and all.
As to the SMK construction and their use in combat, this came about after extensive teminal ballistics testing done by Col. Martin Fackler, M.D. at Letterman Army hospital's wound ballistics lab. The findings revealed that the SMKs performed exactly like the standard FMJ designs required by the Hague and Geneva Accords. Col. Hayes Parks, Chief of International Law, JAG office, wrote the ruling that since the SMKs didn't perform significantly differently from the FMJs, they did not violate the laws of land warfare, and could be use by our troops in combat. At issue her was the nomenclature of their "hollow point" identification, and the connotations that are usually associated with that term. This all took place back around 1988-'89, at a time when we had both the M852 Match round (168 SMK) and the M118 Special Ball (M118 173 grain FMJ) in the system. The M852 displayed significantly better accuracy, but prior to this ruling was restricted to range and match use by law. The M852s were marked "Not for Combat Use" on the boxes and identified by a knurled ring just ahead of the extractor groove on the case body. The decision here had to do with increased accuracy on the part of the ammunition, and the elimination of a redundant Match round in the inventory. Both the M118 Special Ball and the M852 were merged in the M118LR, the newest sniper's round loaded with the 175 SMK. Same FMJ type performance, which is why Sierra doesn't recommend them for use on game, and why they remain legal for combat use. Guarantee you, the Berger's with their thinner jackets wouldn't pass the legal requirements here, and they can be devastating on game. Personally, I'd RATHER see them used for this particular enemy, but that's a personal opinion only.
Anyway, hope this helps clarify the questions posed,
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Might have a few answers here that may help resolve this one. Yes, the Berger Target bullets have the new, thicker jackets; the old style bullets, with the thinner jackets are now dubbed as their Hunting bullets. They are unchanged and completely identical to the old style Bergers you've been using for years. The stresses that competitive shooters put on their rifles is considerably greater than most hunting applications, in terms of numbers of rounds fired, conditions within the bore, that sort of thing. The problems were first noted by competitive shooters, and it was to correct these concerns that Berger did the redesign. I've heard and/or seen very few problems since then, so the issue appears to have been resolved. In the hunting world, we're not firing til the barrels too hot to touch, or running a hundred rounds or more between cleanings, both of which are quite common for match shooting. The bore history has a great deal to do with this as well, and I'd suspect that most of the posters on these boards keep theirs in pretty decent condition. I served as an instructor at Small Arms Firing School at the Nationals this year, and saw a brutal first-hand example of this. Hornady was kind enough to have provided the ammo, their 75 grain BTHP for the shooters, and CMP/AMU provided the M16A2s for the course. We had world class problems with bullets coming apart in flight throughout the school on Viale Range. They used exactly the same ammo for the USMC advanced SAFS course being taught over on Rodriguez Range (where the students providedtheir own match-grade Service rifles) and had virtually zero problems. I had no blow ups with the rifle on my point, while the one next to me was a huge problem. The issue wasn't with the ammo at all, but with the condition of the rifles they were used in. This particular bunch of rifles (most of 'em anyway) were long overdue for a new barrel, which would have likely solved the problem entirely. Don't sweat it and use the Hunting bullets, thin jackets and all.
As to the SMK construction and their use in combat, this came about after extensive teminal ballistics testing done by Col. Martin Fackler, M.D. at Letterman Army hospital's wound ballistics lab. The findings revealed that the SMKs performed exactly like the standard FMJ designs required by the Hague and Geneva Accords. Col. Hayes Parks, Chief of International Law, JAG office, wrote the ruling that since the SMKs didn't perform significantly differently from the FMJs, they did not violate the laws of land warfare, and could be use by our troops in combat. At issue her was the nomenclature of their "hollow point" identification, and the connotations that are usually associated with that term. This all took place back around 1988-'89, at a time when we had both the M852 Match round (168 SMK) and the M118 Special Ball (M118 173 grain FMJ) in the system. The M852 displayed significantly better accuracy, but prior to this ruling was restricted to range and match use by law. The M852s were marked "Not for Combat Use" on the boxes and identified by a knurled ring just ahead of the extractor groove on the case body. The decision here had to do with increased accuracy on the part of the ammunition, and the elimination of a redundant Match round in the inventory. Both the M118 Special Ball and the M852 were merged in the M118LR, the newest sniper's round loaded with the 175 SMK. Same FMJ type performance, which is why Sierra doesn't recommend them for use on game, and why they remain legal for combat use. Guarantee you, the Berger's with their thinner jackets wouldn't pass the legal requirements here, and they can be devastating on game. Personally, I'd RATHER see them used for this particular enemy, but that's a personal opinion only.
Anyway, hope this helps clarify the questions posed,
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Kevin----I will help those who are not clear yet.
If the SMK was EVER mentioned by Sierra as being suitable for hunting then it would immediately put the contract to provide the military with a much needed commodity in dire straits to put it mildly.
Also, Kevin knows more about the SMK than anyone on this board.
FWIW I use the SMK in almost all of my hunting rifles-----the 250 SMK makes a hole the size of a softball at 300 yards in 250 lb feral hog shoulders!
If the SMK was EVER mentioned by Sierra as being suitable for hunting then it would immediately put the contract to provide the military with a much needed commodity in dire straits to put it mildly.
Also, Kevin knows more about the SMK than anyone on this board.
FWIW I use the SMK in almost all of my hunting rifles-----the 250 SMK makes a hole the size of a softball at 300 yards in 250 lb feral hog shoulders!
