Target/ELR 375 HE..
- Thread starter hubel458
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fmajor
Well-Known Member
That's not a good thing! I am sorry to hear that.
I know you're working hard at making this a success and sacrificing/suffering along the way. I really mean no malice, i just do not like it when predatory "entrepreneurs" come across a great idea and capitalize on it at the expense of the inventor (in this instance, that would be Mr. Swamplord).
I don't believe you fall in that predatory entrepreneur category. If i communicated that, i sincerely apologize.
For those who are predatory entrepreneurs.... well, a painful incurable case of irritable bowel syndrome would be a good start!
I hope these amazing cartridge designs catch the "public" eye and you're able to make money as the brass supplier. We need good folks at the helm of shooting sports companies - from basic ammunition manufacturing materials to complete firearms and all areas in between.
I work in business and have owned my own business(es) so i can appreciate front-loading costs. It sucks.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
It'll be interesting to see the performance, the 375 HE looks as if we will get numbers from actual building of a rifle!
Answering a question about case necks.
Most target/ELR guys are using bore rider/boat tail or similiar
and if bullets straight in bore, it don't matter if most of bullet in the case
or in bore as long as straight. And many say too much neck causes problems.
The Lethal version has a shorter neck and we saw it work..
We found that use no expander or min expander and load boat tail real tight
with more bullet out in freebore drops pressure at least 6k, and can get
little more speed. Guys like CEBs, but the seal band sticking up drops
BC maybe 6-8%. If bullet used is bore rider and more out in freebore and straight
in the lands, maybe better, and it is faster with more powder, less bullet
down in where powder should be.. Ed
Most target/ELR guys are using bore rider/boat tail or similiar
and if bullets straight in bore, it don't matter if most of bullet in the case
or in bore as long as straight. And many say too much neck causes problems.
The Lethal version has a shorter neck and we saw it work..
We found that use no expander or min expander and load boat tail real tight
with more bullet out in freebore drops pressure at least 6k, and can get
little more speed. Guys like CEBs, but the seal band sticking up drops
BC maybe 6-8%. If bullet used is bore rider and more out in freebore and straight
in the lands, maybe better, and it is faster with more powder, less bullet
down in where powder should be.. Ed
Hello All,
Great to see such interest in the ELR genre of shooting here
There are a few "key" items that need to be accomplished in order for a wildcat to become common cartridge style "table talk".
Just look how long (since about 2002) the 375/408 has been around yet there are LOTS of folks within the shooting industry that have never heard of it, much less have any personal experience with it.
Just look how long it took the 338NM to become "accepted"..and Jimmie had a good amount of industry manufacturing backing behind it in order to mainstream it.
I think in order for the 375HE, 375 King, 375 Warlord, 375 Mercenary, etc etc to become public enough to be "table talk" there needs to be a few things:
1. FIREARMS Manufacturer(s), NOT a custom rifle builder that is building weapon systems for that cartridge. Proven example comes from back in the original cheytac and associates days. There is a reason they went to EDM to get a weapons system to market they new cartridge, because a cartridge without weapons manufacturer just doesn't get very far; no pun intended.
2. AMMUNITION Manufacturer to offer "factory" ammo in that cartridge. Proven example is the 22TCM. Without Armscorp and Rock Island Armory that would have never made it any further than its grandfather wildcat the 224 BOZ.
3. TECHNICAL Whitepapers need to be completed so that the same information is being marketed and electronically passed around the www instead of he heard, she heard type thing. Proven example again comes from back in the original cheytac and associates days...just google how many times the Yuma Proving Grounds Whitepaper was disseminated instead of he said, she said "technical articles".
4. COMPONENTS need to be readily available for the reloaders, which has its' own headstamp. Which requires an up front investment of about $50,000 USD. That is where the AMMUNITION manufacturer comes into play again. The wildcatter has to seek out an ammunition company that he allows to manufacturer the loaded ammunition in return the ammunition company helps offset the initial brass cost.
Also, faster is not always better in regards to ELR ballistics. Case in point the 305gr Dominator round in the 408...smoking fast but projectile wasn't designed for that kind of MV so laws of physics took over and handed it the old, faster it goes..faster it slows law....ALL components must be built to not only be compatible with the other components but each component must improve the other components. That is the Golden Key
My opinion anyways lightbulb
THEIS
Last edited:
Hello All,
Great to see such interest in the ELR genre of shooting here
There are a few "key" items that need to be accomplished in order for a wildcat to become common cartridge style "table talk".
Just look how long (since about 2002) the 375/408 has been around yet there are LOTS of folks within the shooting industry that have never heard of it, much less have any personal experience with it.
Just look how long it took the 338NM to become "accepted"..and Jimmie had a good amount of industry manufacturing backing behind it in order to mainstream it.
I think in order for the 375HE, 375 King, 375 Warlord, 375 Mercenary, etc etc to become public enough to be "table talk" there needs to be a few things:
1. FIREARMS Manufacturer(s), NOT a custom rifle builder that is building weapon systems for that cartridge. Proven example comes from back in the original cheytac and associates days. There is a reason they went to EDM to get a weapons system to market they new cartridge, because a cartridge without weapons manufacturer just doesn't get very far; no pun intended.
2. AMMUNITION Manufacturer to offer "factory" ammo in that cartridge. Proven example is the 22TCM. Without Armscorp and Rock Island Armory that would have never made it any further than its grandfather wildcat the 224 BOZ.
3. TECHNICAL Whitepapers need to be completed so that the same information is being marketed and electronically passed around the www instead of he heard, she heard type thing. Proven example again comes from back in the original cheytac and associates days...just google how many times the Yuma Proving Grounds Whitepaper was disseminated instead of he said, she said "technical articles".
4. COMPONENTS need to be readily available for the reloaders, which has its' own headstamp. Which requires an up front investment of about $50,000 USD. That is where the AMMUNITION manufacturer comes into play again. The wildcatter has to seek out an ammunition company that he allows to manufacturer the loaded ammunition in return the ammunition company helps offset the initial brass cost.
Also, faster is not always better in regards to ELR ballistics. Case in point the 305gr Dominator round in the 408...smoking fast but projectile wasn't designed for that kind of MV so laws of physics took over and handed it the old, faster it goes..faster it slows law....ALL components must be built to not only be compatible with the other components but each component must improve the other components. That is the Golden Key
My opinion anyways lightbulb
THEIS
Cartridges like this will never truly "take off", so to speak. Far too specialized with limited powder choices and short barrel life.
These systems are designed for the guys who are really pushing the limits competitively or who just want to have the most extreme. Because of this, I think most of your points above don't necessarily apply (not that they aren't right, because I do agree with most all of what you said).
Posts on the Lethal Magnum have been viewed by well over 100,000 people with in 6 months of its official release due to our connections to bigger companies like McMillan USA, Berger, Applied Ballistics, NF, etc. About 10 Lethal Magnum rifle are being built right now, a few nearing completion as parts arrive, with more projects still in the planning phase. We've been taking orders since August. It has been challenging for me, as I am building a reputation as a company while all of this is going on; they both feed on each other. As things grow you may see complete rifle models available, ready to ship.
Right now, a guy can order a complete rifle, or have an action barreled, buy formed brass ready to load for $4 a piece, and a set of reloading dies for $250. It will be hard to get much lower than that unless you really scale up production, or you just aren't making money.
Either way it's very young, and in all reality, still being developed and perfected. The Lethal Magnum has gone through hundreds of rounds in testing and a few refinements to what it is today in the rifles going out the door.
The Warlord and HE fit a more niche market of guys who really just like to have control over the whole process and have their own reamer. Brass/forming cost will likely be higher due to a slower process, and/or the cost of buying a forming die set, and also higher die set costs from custom die makers. These are the guys you get a lot of on these forums, and some of the hard core Facebook groups, which is why you see these conversations taking place.
Hello All,
Very valid points Mitch but these cartridges can "take off" easier if some of my points were considered more applicable by USA side of the industry, but we also must realize that the recreational USA market is not even 5% on the Global Scale of ELR shooting.
Case in point #1 on that statement....file a Freedom of Information Act on US Department of State DSP-5's on some of the household company names in the ELR genre..specifically in regards to FMS (Foreign Military Sales). I wager that more 408s went to Turkey and Poland combined by year 2005 than recreational USA shooters have built to date.
Case in point #2 on that statement...just compare the number of International firearms manufacturers (not including custom builders but production manufacturers) that produce rifles in 408CT and 375CT to the number of domestic firearms manufacturers.
Trust me I want nothing more than one of these wildcats to "take off"; as there truly is a need for it but IMO a few of my original post points will be required to be completed before any of these wildcats will ever take a market share from Cheytac cartridges. I just hope you all do not hobble yourselves by limiting potential customer base to recreational shooters. Just briefly examining your "viewed" numbers to your "build" numbers....Do you think you could get more than your current .01 percent conversion rate if #2 and #4 of my points were able to be completed?
Just like the old saying "Aim Small, Miss Small" is the motto of shooting world; the saying "Think small, stay small" is the motto that controls the business world. Please do not limit any of yall's cartridge improvements by not improving and forecasting your business improvements
THEIS
Very valid points Mitch but these cartridges can "take off" easier if some of my points were considered more applicable by USA side of the industry, but we also must realize that the recreational USA market is not even 5% on the Global Scale of ELR shooting.
Case in point #1 on that statement....file a Freedom of Information Act on US Department of State DSP-5's on some of the household company names in the ELR genre..specifically in regards to FMS (Foreign Military Sales). I wager that more 408s went to Turkey and Poland combined by year 2005 than recreational USA shooters have built to date.
Case in point #2 on that statement...just compare the number of International firearms manufacturers (not including custom builders but production manufacturers) that produce rifles in 408CT and 375CT to the number of domestic firearms manufacturers.
Trust me I want nothing more than one of these wildcats to "take off"; as there truly is a need for it but IMO a few of my original post points will be required to be completed before any of these wildcats will ever take a market share from Cheytac cartridges. I just hope you all do not hobble yourselves by limiting potential customer base to recreational shooters. Just briefly examining your "viewed" numbers to your "build" numbers....Do you think you could get more than your current .01 percent conversion rate if #2 and #4 of my points were able to be completed?
Just like the old saying "Aim Small, Miss Small" is the motto of shooting world; the saying "Think small, stay small" is the motto that controls the business world. Please do not limit any of yall's cartridge improvements by not improving and forecasting your business improvements
THEIS
Why not make your own? I've had a few different sets made using a resize/rougher reamer and then sending them off to get hardened. Mine were just made out of A-2 tool stock and hardened by a local shop that works with local industrial manufacturers.
I'm anxious to see how this works out for you. I've been thinking of a 416 or 458 on a case between the CT and the Barrett and your HE was one that I've been looking at. Going to a larger bore diameter would help get past some of the limited powder options with the heavy weigh 375 projectiles. I was thinking of a 475-500gr .416 bullet or maybe 600gr .458 VLD
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
With the impending doom of total gun ban, manufacturers are backlogged years.
Seriously, all the makers seem to be backlogged.
I've got a 585HE chamber reamer cutting a forming die in the lathe. Should finish it tomorrow and start working on the bushing side. Then the bushings. If I got it all correct, the 585HE reamer will go out to be reground to 375HE.
Contemplating a 338HE.
