A power driven case holder (ie sinclair) that uses lee shellholders while holding the neck turner in your hand to "float" the turner works well and easy. Hand neck turning will give anyone a bad taste and carpal tunnel syndrome! Interested to see what people say about maing a difference on paper. It made a difference for me.
When to turn
- Thread starter heikki02003
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boomtube
Well-Known Member
"My ? is how much is turning really helping, does it show up on paper? Then when i was turning i was using custom bullets such as Euber, Hollister, and watson's ( dont even know if there around anymore ) "
Mike, I'm no expert but I have tried everything on the table to achieve better accuracy. Don't think the bullets themselves have much effect on the results of neck turning, other than those that shoot well will show any improvement more clearly. My two real "expert" BR shooting friends ("Mike" Walker and Dave Tooley) say we factory rifle shooters are spinning our wheels when turning. I believe them but I do it anyway. A little.
I cut just enough off the necks to clean up the worst of the thickness variations, not enough to totally eliminate it because I'm certain my rifles can't see the difference. What I do know is it can't hurt, not unless it's taken to ridiculous levels! ( And, yeah, I've tied THAT too! Just made a mess out of a mess!
)
Did some experimenting by forming tightly fitted case necks for my three best shooters, a .22-250 Sako, .243 Wea. Vanguard and a 6mm International Rem. 40XB (a factory "wildcat" that I have to form the cases for anyway). Formed the smaller cases from carefully weighed .30-06 cases. The necks were far too thick, which was my goal. Then, working to chamber cast measurements, I turned (and annealed) the necks to only a .003" clearance. It was fun as an experiment but a lot of work. My typical groups did improve a little but not enough to keep it up, my previous 1/2" and 3/8" averages were - maybe - 1/16" better. That's a LOT of improvement for "BR" comptition but it really didn't make any difference to me since I'm only shooting crows and groundhogs! And I suspect that the end goal IS the important difference when people speak of does turning make any "difference" or not. ??
I find no way to predict what neck turning factory chambered brass will do tho, nor how much to thin the necks. I know that turning won't make a 2" rifle into a half incher, nor even a one incher. On most of my rifles, it has shown no detectable change at all. I THINK the difference may be just how much slop is in the chamber fit to start with. In those few rifles that it does help, they do have slightly tighter chamber necks than the others. So....maybe that's it?
My Forster HOT-100 neck turner is well made and inexpensive, as turners go, and I think it does as good a job as any other. (Dropping the large coins for a Pumpkin, etc, for factory rifles IS a waste! IMHO.) I suggest anyone who wishes to leave no stone unturned (PUN), get a HOT-100 and try it. Even if it has no effect, you will have the assurance that you haven't left anything out in your endeavors, but don't expect any massive improvement.
Mike, I'm no expert but I have tried everything on the table to achieve better accuracy. Don't think the bullets themselves have much effect on the results of neck turning, other than those that shoot well will show any improvement more clearly. My two real "expert" BR shooting friends ("Mike" Walker and Dave Tooley) say we factory rifle shooters are spinning our wheels when turning. I believe them but I do it anyway. A little.
I cut just enough off the necks to clean up the worst of the thickness variations, not enough to totally eliminate it because I'm certain my rifles can't see the difference. What I do know is it can't hurt, not unless it's taken to ridiculous levels! ( And, yeah, I've tied THAT too! Just made a mess out of a mess!
)Did some experimenting by forming tightly fitted case necks for my three best shooters, a .22-250 Sako, .243 Wea. Vanguard and a 6mm International Rem. 40XB (a factory "wildcat" that I have to form the cases for anyway). Formed the smaller cases from carefully weighed .30-06 cases. The necks were far too thick, which was my goal. Then, working to chamber cast measurements, I turned (and annealed) the necks to only a .003" clearance. It was fun as an experiment but a lot of work. My typical groups did improve a little but not enough to keep it up, my previous 1/2" and 3/8" averages were - maybe - 1/16" better. That's a LOT of improvement for "BR" comptition but it really didn't make any difference to me since I'm only shooting crows and groundhogs! And I suspect that the end goal IS the important difference when people speak of does turning make any "difference" or not. ??
I find no way to predict what neck turning factory chambered brass will do tho, nor how much to thin the necks. I know that turning won't make a 2" rifle into a half incher, nor even a one incher. On most of my rifles, it has shown no detectable change at all. I THINK the difference may be just how much slop is in the chamber fit to start with. In those few rifles that it does help, they do have slightly tighter chamber necks than the others. So....maybe that's it?
My Forster HOT-100 neck turner is well made and inexpensive, as turners go, and I think it does as good a job as any other. (Dropping the large coins for a Pumpkin, etc, for factory rifles IS a waste! IMHO.) I suggest anyone who wishes to leave no stone unturned (PUN), get a HOT-100 and try it. Even if it has no effect, you will have the assurance that you haven't left anything out in your endeavors, but don't expect any massive improvement.
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100% on the same page with ya boomtube. I do also use the neck turning process to index my cases for thick/thin sides. When I turn a half thou off, the side of the case that is untouched by the cutter is the thin side of the case (which I place behind my recoil lug). I mark the thin side and take another half thou off (only if needed to achieve thickness, concentricity etc. Any thoughts/experience whether this might contribute to brass life/accuracy?
Thanks boomtube, you do seem to have your act togeather so dont second guess your self. I do remember Seely maker built me a 22-250 ack. and the neck dimn. you had to do as you spoke as a cleanup. I just had a bad experience when i turned for my ppc. I dont know the adbundance now but i was lucky then to be friends with masker and he actually gave me some 220 russian brass when 90% was shooting the sako brass and having some issues. If you knew Seely he was a great guy but a grouchy old man at the best of times and gave me **** for screwing up some brass that i over turned. So he sent me more and really gave me some **** of how to do it. You had to know the guy. With all of this neck turning is on the bottom of my list.
Mike
Mike
boomtube
Well-Known Member
"I mark the thin side and take another half thou off (only if needed to achieve thickness, concentricity etc. Any thoughts/experience whether this might contribute to brass life/accuracy?"
No. Never even thought of it in that light. You may have something going on that for accuracy, by a few thousants on the target anyway, but I don't see how it could help with case life. But, that don't mean you aint right on both counts! ??
Mike, I never knew Mr. Masker but he and Mike Walker were friendly. I have read a LOT of his stuff in various issues of Precision Shooting. It was clear that he was well respected, had a handle on what he was doing and what he said, with little tollerance for foolishness. (Sorta made me think of what Yosemity Sam would have been like as a gunsmith/BR shooter. Just the kind of guy I would like to be if I ever grow up!)
No. Never even thought of it in that light. You may have something going on that for accuracy, by a few thousants on the target anyway, but I don't see how it could help with case life. But, that don't mean you aint right on both counts! ??
Mike, I never knew Mr. Masker but he and Mike Walker were friendly. I have read a LOT of his stuff in various issues of Precision Shooting. It was clear that he was well respected, had a handle on what he was doing and what he said, with little tollerance for foolishness. (Sorta made me think of what Yosemity Sam would have been like as a gunsmith/BR shooter. Just the kind of guy I would like to be if I ever grow up!
)Seely Masker ( The Great Gunsmith ) was a very special person to me. I bought a used bench gun off of him, sent to me and said check it out then mail me a check. The man didnt know me from adam , his theory was if you cant trust a shooter who in the hell can you trust. I was in the auto- body business at the time and started painting his stocks for him. I couldnt belive how many bench guns this guy turned out. He invited me to his home in Getzville NY. just outside if Buffalo. I went up and spent the day, his shop was in his basement. Very nice set up he had, bet the neighbors didnt know what was going on in this guys basement. We had a very good friendship for around 6 years until he retired still kept close by phone then he left the range to his happy shooting grounds. The man was very funny, he good be so **** grouchy you would have to laugh. I would be talking to him on the phone in jan. and ask how was the weather was, his responce: how in the hell would i know im not outside. Or the phone would ring ( before caller id ) pick it up and say hello: on the other end was : where in the hell is my ******** stocks. You had to love the man. I never forgot one year shooting the IBS nationals after the match they would call out top scores, Seely now in late 80's with bad legs would hobble around to each of his shooters and give his his firm hand shake and say well done. What a man and one hell of a gunsmith. I miss our friendship.
Mike
Mike
