Viability of 8mm Mauser (8x57) as a long range round

[Beng]

I don't care where a design comes from, I care for it's performance and possibly it's aestethics. Currently I'm hunting with a Heym SR21, which is a pretty German rifle.
The 8MM caliber doesn't offer any suitable long range bullets in comparison with 7mm, .30 and .338 caliber. This is a fact. And instead of advertising my pet caliber to new shooters, I recommend working solutions.
Hunting in Germany is at least 99% inside 300 yards. Hunting is often done in thick forrest and there the 8x57 shines. At longer ranges it not only lacks good bullets, it lack's volume too. .308 and .30-06 can compesate for their lack of volume by propelling high bc bullets 8x57 can't.
If the opener is looking specifically for old German military cartridges he should take a closer look at the 7x57, it might be uncommon which makes it impractical, but atleast the bullet selection is fine and the performance for midrange hunting as well.

 

[Varberger757]

I don't care where a design comes from, I care for it's performance and possibly it's aestethics. Currently I'm hunting with a Heym SR21, which is a pretty German rifle.
The 8MM caliber doesn't offer any suitable long range bullets in comparison with 7mm, .30 and .338 caliber. This is a fact. And instead of advertising my pet caliber to new shooters, I recommend working solutions.
Hunting in Germany is at least 99% inside 300 yards. Hunting is often done in thick forrest and there the 8x57 shines. At longer ranges it not only lacks good bullets, it lack's volume too. .308 and .30-06 can compesate for their lack of volume by propelling high bc bullets 8x57 can't.
If the opener is looking specifically for old German military cartridges he should take a closer look at the 7x57, it might be uncommon which makes it impractical, but atleast the bullet selection is fine and the performance for midrange hunting as well.

You are writing and telling a lot, a lot of crap! I'm German by origin and hunt, shoot actively since 1976 both in my home country and since 1999 also in Norway and Sweden. I killed, as @Wildrose would say "literally spoken piles of game". I doubt that you're an experienced hunter at all, I doubt that you ever did pass the examine for the German Jagdschein (hunting licence). Everything you have written so far was never ever related to hunting just phrases! Otherwise, you would know what your fellow hunters are using in calibres and rifles! Another explanation might be that no one likes you, and you never are invited … It seems that you are compensating for your lack of knowledge/experience by using second-hand experience. Intense use of Google and/or ballistic tables may help a while, but it'll come to an end one day!
My whole life I've been extraordinary passionate concerning hunting and shooting and know pretty much about it both theoretically and practically. Not to mention the 2 years of active military service during the Cold War in the early 1980' which were very helpful as well.
Therefore, it is new to me that projectiles like the Nosler AB, Sierra Game King, Swift Scirocco II, Brenneke TOG, Nosler CC, Hornady BT - HP etc. have a fundamental lack of BC … all available in 8mmS …! 8x57IS is no cartridge for LRH as much as the 308W and 30-06 whatever that implicates. The OP already knows about it.
However, you should never try again to make false claims about a European or German calibre. About its characteristics and how common and/or widespread it is!
[FONT=&quot]BTW, the Americans don't know (how could they?) that you have to pass an additional examine in Germany to get the permit for reloading as well (Sprengstoffschein), but I do …! [/FONT]

 

[Beng]

Most propably your much more passionate about hunting than I am and killing more game animals than me isn't that hard. I'm just filling the freezer whenever I feel the need to, while enjoying the outdoors.
I fall into the category of Jagdscheininhaber not Waidmann.
That doesn't change anything about the availability of high bc (.6+ G1) bullets in 8mm caliber and thus it's viability for succesful long range shooting and hunting though.

 

[.358 NM]

One option is loading a lighter bullet aster, or a heavy well made bullet a bit harder to compensate for it . IE, remaking the MG loads for the 8mm, and the Ss, Schweres Spitzgeschoss. I have used my 8mm on ranges up to 500 meters, not long range ones. But seeing the ammo impacting on that range through spotter scope surely make it better than 6,5 and others. The down range impact of it have to be seen to belive it . 13 gram is a good way to go for it , with sierra Match king bullet that work great or 200 Accubond is one way to go. I have shot mostly HMG load and it is surprising in both ways of the rifle. however i think it offers more importance in using it , as it is very versatile round and it pleases a Norwegian / Preussian mix as i am .

 

[.358 NM]

It is interesting that Nils Kvale the designer on Norma for his new breed of short magnums used the 8x57IS as model. He designed his 8mm PMM, Poor mans Magnum around it . that later led to the .308 norma Magnum and the .358 NM.

Originally the 8x57I were loaded with a 244 grain rn fmj bullet, in 1905 with the modernisation and results after earlier conflicts. the Boxer rebellion and the Spanish American war and the French Balle D round for their 8mm Lebel. A new step was taken . Increase the diameter slightly and ut in a lighter more spitzer shaped round to compensate for the longer ranges. The 8x57IS was born for longer ranges use. Same time the Imperial German trials were into also designing a 6x57 , but that was just a trial cartridge. it did not go anywhere, until the 6mm Remington came out many decades later .

Also it is fascinating that the round that basically the .30-06 is a copy of , in its all achivement of getting a smalelr round with more energy out on longer ranges, is still doing so good. It is a living classic and should be used and loved , respected under the circumstances one encounter. Not showed away because it is "nicht modern" . That is almost a heretic blame on a round that have been there done that and back again .

 

[benchracer]

You can argue history and heritage all you want, but only physics is relevant in a ballistic discussion and physics is most definitely against you.

The argument against the 8x57 as a long range cartridge has NOTHING to do with the perceived modernity of the cartridge and EVERYTHING to do with the low bc bullets available in 8mm. The 6.5x55 and 7x57 are both capable of long range use because the right bullets are available and those cartridges can push them fast enough to be useful at long range. There are not bullets suitable for long range hunting available in 8mm and the 8x57 can't push what is available fast enough to make it viable as a long range hunting cartridge.

The BEST bullets available in 8mm are 10+ years behind what is available in other diameters. No one is bothering to develop long range bullets in 8mm. A cartridge that pushes LOW bc bullets at LOW velocities is NOT a viable long range cartridge, no matter how much you might wish it were otherwise.

Availability of better bullets MIGHT be able to change the situation somewhat. So, instead of whining about the perceived disrespect for your pet Teutonic cartridge, how about getting together with your legions of other devoted 8mm fans in Europe to push the bullet makers to offer high bc hunting bullets for your favorite cartridge? THAT is what North American shooters have been doing for many years, THAT is how better products are made available, and THAT is why the 30-06 is a viable long range cartridge and the 8x57 IS NOT.

Is it a good classic cartridge at NORMAL hunting ranges? Yes! But, that wasn't the question the OP asked, was it?!?

 

[Varberger757]

So, instead of whining about the perceived disrespect for your pet Teutonic cartridge, how about getting together with your legions of other devoted 8mm fans in Europe to push the bullet makers to offer high bc hunting bullets for your favorite cartridge? THAT is what North American shooters have been doing for many years

[FONT=&quot]Teutonic, and the negative implications that expression gives you personally, is what really lies behind your 'argumentation' @Benchracer, isn't it? Congrats.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Everything is far better in North America … as usual. We have already heard about it and often.[/FONT]

 

[gohring3006]

You can argue history and heritage all you want, but only physics is relevant in a ballistic discussion and physics is most definitely against you.

The argument against the 8x57 as a long range cartridge has NOTHING to do with the perceived modernity of the cartridge and EVERYTHING to do with the low bc bullets available in 8mm. The 6.5x55 and 7x57 are both capable of long range use because the right bullets are available and those cartridges can push them fast enough to be useful at long range. There are not bullets suitable for long range hunting available in 8mm and the 8x57 can't push what is available fast enough to make it viable as a long range hunting cartridge.

The BEST bullets available in 8mm are 10+ years behind what is available in other diameters. No one is bothering to develop long range bullets in 8mm. A cartridge that pushes LOW bc bullets at LOW velocities is NOT a viable long range cartridge, no matter how much you might wish it were otherwise.

Availability of better bullets MIGHT be able to change the situation somewhat. So, instead of whining about the perceived disrespect for your pet Teutonic cartridge, how about getting together with your legions of other devoted 8mm fans in Europe to push the bullet makers to offer high bc hunting bullets for your favorite cartridge? THAT is what North American shooters have been doing for many years, THAT is how better products are made available, and THAT is why the 30-06 is a viable long range cartridge and the 8x57 IS NOT.

Is it a good classic cartridge at NORMAL hunting ranges? Yes! But, that wasn't the question the OP asked, was it?!?

Well said benchracer,
I love shooting an old 98 but the ballistics are not there. I'm at work and I'm not sure if I can even find ballistics on the 8×57 compared to even the .308 let alone the 30-06. Hopefully someone can post this we need something like a 180- 200gr bullet comparison. BC's drop, wind drift and energy levels at 1000yards. You will see very quickly why the .30 cals are much better than the light weight 8mm bullets based on the "standard" bolt face cartridges. Of Mauser's design. Its nothing against the 8×57 its just like asking the 30-30 win. to be a 600 yard deer gun..

 

[benchracer]

[FONT=&quot]Teutonic, and the negative implications that expression gives you personally, is what really lies behind your 'argumentation' @Benchracer, isn't it? Congrats.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Everything is far better in North America … as usual. We have already heard about it and often.[/FONT]

If you knew who you are actually addressing, you would realize how petty and feeble your argument truly is.

The facts are against you. It is nothing more complicated than that. If you are not happy with the state of long range shooting in Europe, then I exhort you to do something positive to change that, along with your fellow shooters.

However, I know for a fact that there are many accomplished long range shooters in Europe. In those circles, the virtues of other bullet diameters (such as .338, 7mm, and 6.5mm) are well understood. Demanding that others ignore the facts in assessing the real world performance of a classic cartridge does no service to anyone.

 

[Varberger757]

Well said benchracer,
I love shooting an old 98 but the ballistics are not there. I'm at work and I'm not sure if I can even find ballistics on the 8×57 compared to even the .308 let alone the 30-06. Hopefully someone can post this we need something like a 180- 200gr bullet comparison.

Reloading data

8x57 JS - Norma

Patronen für Büchsen | Büchsenmunition Online Shop | Frankonia.de

You don't know much about 8x57IS and the others 8mm, don't you. You are obviously using ridiculous SAAMI - loaddata for your Mauser. No one who knows about his "business" would do so! I find it very hard to find any ready loaded 3006 with 200gr. which makes 800 m/s without problems. No problem for the 8x57IS, and the 308W with its low velocities concerning bullet - weights >170gr is not even under discussion. Yepp, John Wayne with his 30 - 30 was impressive ... in cinema.

 

[MudRunner2005]

Back to the OP's original question, a 7x57 or 7x57 Ackley or a 6.5x55 Ackley likely give you better long range options because of the higher velocity, better bullet choices and readier availability of good barrel blanks.

I agree completely... A local guy to me has an old 1891 Argentine Mauser action for sale for like $75, I've thought about seeing if he'll take $50, and buying it and building a 7x57 AI off of it, just for fun. But finding a nice sporter style stock that accepts the action, short of a Richard's Microfit, is about impossible.

The main thing stopping me is all the negative things about small-ring Mausers not being strong, but I've also read that that is BS... So, not really sure who to trust. Anyone ever built a modern high pressure caliber on a small-ring M91 Mauser?

 

[gohring3006]

Reloading data

8x57 JS - Norma

Patronen für Büchsen | Büchsenmunition Online Shop | Frankonia.de

You don't know much about 8x57IS and the others 8mm, don't you. You are obviously using ridiculous SAAMI - loaddata for your Mauser. No one who knows about his "business" would do so! I find it very hard to find any ready loaded 3006 with 200gr. which makes 800 m/s without problems. No problem for the 8x57IS, and the 308W with its low velocities concerning bullet - weights >170gr is not even under discussion. Yepp, John Wayne with his 30 - 30 was impressive ... in cinema.

What is your 200 gr 8mm BC ?

 

[gohring3006]

I just did the conversion on meters to feet per second and I can get a 200gr smk BC.58 to 2600 fps easy behind a stiff load of imr4350. I know there are fellas getting more than that out of the 30-06 with a 208 Amax BC .648 and RL 17..

 

[gohring3006]

Reloading data

8x57 JS - Norma

Patronen für Büchsen | Büchsenmunition Online Shop | Frankonia.de

You don't know much about 8x57IS and the others 8mm, don't you. You are obviously using ridiculous SAAMI - loaddata for your Mauser. No one who knows about his "business" would do so! I find it very hard to find any ready loaded 3006 with 200gr. which makes 800 m/s without problems. No problem for the 8x57IS, and the 308W with its low velocities concerning bullet - weights >170gr is not even under discussion. Yepp, John Wayne with his 30 - 30 was impressive ... in cinema.

I just reviewed the web sites you posted and those numbers are not that hard to achieve with the 30-06 and those BC numbers with those bullets are not even considered for long range here maybe you guy just have different opinions on what a long range bullet is. The only one I might even consider would be the 220 gameking and it would be hard to get it to 2500fps and it has such a low BC compared to its weight that it really isnt a viable option. the trajectory would be like a rainbow and would not have the energy at longrange..