To neck turn, to ream or not to ream?

[TOM H]

I like the idea about turning the necks on new brass first before even firing them. From what I am gathering here, good brass makes sense. Before reading this forum, I thought that "brass was brass", now realize that is not the case! There certainly is a lot of information to process about neck sizing, turning and reaming. I currently have the Forster Original trimmer, they too have a neck turning and reaming process that is done at the same time. I'm thinking either Sinclair or K&M and get the entire set up to turn the necks. I am also researching annealing, another process that seems to be technical and challenging equally. I'm starting to think, "just buy the equipment, use it, make mistakes and then ask questions": however, that can get very costly very quickly. I have to thank all of the people on this forum for taking the time and for sharing their experience and knowledge.

I got my start turning necks with Forester trimmer and I have 3 of them including inside neck reamers. I have 2 of the Forester yellow boxes for trimmer full of mandrels,reamers etc. I keep one trimmer just for inside neck reaming. About only fancy things I had was tube mike and feeler gauge for setting neck thickness. I some how managed to shoot BR back then and I shot some pretty small groups. Course I was shooting pretty accuracy rifle to start with.

I still use them today set up for tight neck 22BR,222AI.

I have one of these 7mm

https://www.hartcustomrifles.com/product/hart-deluxe-neck-turning-tool/

Since I gave you hard time about 280AI, Send me your address I'll send that turner to you and get you started.

 

[JSHKS]

I found little if any use on turning for a factory or a chamber that did not need to be thinned. The neck acts as a bushing of sorts for the bullet. To thick or to thin is not well received.
When turned properly the donut will roll to the outside and be turned off.
A shave of sorts just to knock off high spots may or may not gain anything.
It does t bother me to turn necks, IF it gives me some type of gain, it is a one time thing. Where as I hate trimming.

 

[Jeffrey Van Zandt]

Okay I need some help with this. I have tried deciphering all of the threads on this site and a couple of other sites about whether to turn the case necks, or to ream out the doughnut or to do both. I do not know what the sequence is to turn or ream case necks, when to resize and then turn the necks, or not resize and ream the neck out first and when do I need an expansion mandrel and for what!! I am in the process of finding a case neck turning tool, but do not know what to get because I am not familiar with what needs to be done, when and how to do it. I presently have a Forster Original tool case trimmer, from what I have seen this doesn't appear to be a bad too to add on a neck turner and neck reamer. Thanks for any direction you can provide.

I ream the inside just to take any high spots down so the inside is smooth when it holds the bullet

 

[trhall]

I like the idea about turning the necks on new brass first before even firing them. From what I am gathering here, good brass makes sense. Before reading this forum, I thought that "brass was brass", now realize that is not the case! There certainly is a lot of information to process about neck sizing, turning and reaming. I currently have the Forster Original trimmer, they too have a neck turning and reaming process that is done at the same time. I'm thinking either Sinclair or K&M and get the entire set up to turn the necks. I am also researching annealing, another process that seems to be technical and challenging equally. I'm starting to think, "just buy the equipment, use it, make mistakes and then ask questions": however, that can get very costly very quickly. I have to thank all of the people on this forum for taking the time and for sharing their experience and knowledge.

For me it's cheaper to send my brass to Copper Creek Cartridge for annealing at $30 per 100 than to own the equipment for it. I do use a K&N to turn necks on new brass as others have stated they do.

 

[Bob Wright]

Tight neck chambers require it if you cannot get a new bullet to slip into a spent case, easily, like it will slip in with gravity, lol. My custom barreled 7 mm Rem mag had a tighter neck without ordering it that way. Pressure signs caused me to exhaust a lot of inspections and at the advice of a really good gun builder, I casted the chamber and found my Nosler brass and the tight neck were one cause of my pressure issue. I ended up with .004 clearance of loaded neck size gave me a nice release and lower SD (7 fps SD) in this handload. It required about .0012 reduction in diameter on loaded cartridges if I remember correctly. It really reduced those Satanic flyers too.

 

[OrionsStar]

Just an opinion, but years ago I tried neck reaming. it was extremely difficult to produce case necks with uniform thickness that were concentric because the reamer wanted to follow the neck bore and only reduced the neck thickness of the neck. but did not uniform the thickness. Then I tried neck turning and had much better results.

The problem was that with different case brands and thicknesses, I had trouble getting the turning mandrels to fit realy good in the different cases. I ended up making different size mandrels for each caliber.

looking to up grade even more and getting better results, I looked at different neck turners and realy liked the Sinclair tool with the expander mandrel concept of sizing the case neck first to fit the turning mandrel and then turning the outside of the neck to consistent and precise thicknesses.

There are other brands of neck turners available now that weren't then and they should do good also.

The best thicknesses, most uniform and concentric necks I have achieve to date is by using the expander method on new cases before the chamber has a chance to move neck off center because of the differences in thickness before they are sized or fired.

I prep all of the new cases and run them through the sizing mandrel first, then i turn the necks (By hand because I found better precision
that If i used a drill or motor drive for the cutter) It is slower but the results were better for me.

Using bushing dies, uniform neck thicknesses are extremely important, so time is not important for some processes.

If all the turning is done correctly, the chamber has the last word as to how precision your brass is. When fired the first time my cases are not only concentric to the bore, (Very important to precision loading)
they are uniform in thickness there is no run out inside and outside
of the neck.

Precision loaded ammo relies on precision cases and this method has produced the best for me. I know that when I load, that I am starting with precision cases and any run out or concentricity found after loading is the loading process and no fault of poorly prepared cases.

Turning by hand is no doubt slower, but the results are better in my experience and that is the purpose of all this turning in the first place
to get better accuracy and more consistent bullet grip.

Other people get good results differently, but this works best for me.

J E CUSTOM

I use Sinclair expander and turner. Like said here I perform this task on new unfired cases after the other prep work is done. I only buy the best brass posable and do not mix lot numbers or brands. It takes some time but its more enjoyable for me as well. The K&M products are great as well. I don't think you can go wrong either way, K&M or Sinclair.
The extra effort is defiantly worth my time and OCD.
Jim

 

[Orange Dust]

I found little if any use on turning for a factory or a chamber that did not need to be thinned. The neck acts as a bushing of sorts for the bullet. To thick or to thin is not well received.
When turned properly the donut will roll to the outside and be turned off.
A shave of sorts just to knock off high spots may or may not gain anything.
It does t bother me to turn necks, IF it gives me some type of gain, it is a one time thing. Where as I hate trimming.

I don't completely agree. While turning for a standard chamber has no effect on clearance, having all the necks the same has an effect on both concentricity and bullet pull. It makes a difference even in a standard chamber. Only difference is instead of turning to hit a dimension, you just take off just enough to clean up about 80% of the neck on the thinnest ones

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

I've also been looking at the K&M neck turning tool, do they have an attachment available where you can use an electric drill or does the turning have to be all by hand?

alot of sporting good stores stock these , about 15 bucks and you have an adapter for your drill that'll clamp on your brass

for your 270 sized brass
https://leeprecision.com/gage-holder-270-win.html

for the 358 win this page say they have "custom but ready to ship "
https://leeprecision.com/case-conditioning-tools/case-trimming-tools/case-length-gauge-holder/

but really they are like shell holders , just get a different cartridge with the same case head size and your good (( unless you wanna utilize that trimming pilot that comes with it ))

this part is the adapter to your drill
https://leeprecision.com/large-cutter-with-lock-stud.html

the expander mandrel need is likely, about half the time your expander button in the sizing die is the perfect size ,

too tight on the turning pilot and the friction will heat up and it wont cut right , too loose and it wont cut right either,

annealing before , to me seems soften brass so it will push any donut to the outside of the neck , to be turned off . plus softens brass to prevent cracking at the neck shoulder junction because of the immediate brass thickness differences


first either find a drawing or better yet measure your chamber neck , so you have a target measurement that you want your neck to be , then start with a couple cases to used that you dont care if you ruin to test with and set up your tool ,, before you dedicate a certain cut depth , start light & cut so that it doesn't cut all of the way around (you will find it does cut 100% diameter on a few of them) **** this is the point when you realize how different the brass is in the same lot and you should turn all the brass you reload **** i try to set my depth so that about 20-30% dont get the full cut and those dont make it to the good brass box .. i get the concentricity of it with the consistent release while maintaining as much material in the neck as possible

i ruined quite a few cases cutting too close to the shoulder , by giving it a breaking point when expanding the neck at firing ,, try to resist that urge to run the angled cutter up the shoulder all the way , ** your 280AI chamber has a small radius here anyway ** on the other side of the coin if you stay too far away that extra material you left will become a donut for sure down the road

then you have to seat a bullet to measure how thick your neck walls ended up ,

most of the cases i do start at about .015 neck , and have found if you cut too thin ( say .012 ) they seat way too easy and i think they could get bumped out of seat by recoil , plus they will be expanding more and more prone to cracking - because of the immediate difference in brass thickness between the original shoulder and the now thinner neck ,

i am certain you will be glad you invested in the turner tools , you may as well save some shipping and get pilots for everthing you own

 

[JSHKS]

I don't completely agree. While turning for a standard chamber has no effect on clearance, having all the necks the same has an effect on both concentricity and bullet pull. It makes a difference even in a standard chamber. Only difference is instead of turning to hit a dimension, you just take off just enough to clean up about 80% of the neck on the thinnest ones

I did 243,308,270,25-06 and 30-06, pretty much as you mentioned, 70-80% clean up. Some of these were run of the mill rack rifles and a couple were semi custom.
I had worked loads up for each. Most would say they were great to excellent groups, yet I thought I may get a bit more. I never ran them over the chrono after turning, but there was not any measurable gain from unturned.
I turned some for a tight SAMMI 30-06 for a buddy, groups actually opened up on that particular rig, noticeably yet still easily minute of deer.

The things we do and try to gain accuracy are only limited by each individual's thoughts. I pretty much match prep all my hunting ammo, though it is probably a waste of time.

Doing things to that we think helps increases confidence. Which in turn may actually help more than the actuall operation.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

I never ran them over the chrono after turning, but there was not any measurable gain from unturned.

at what distance ? if 200-300 sure but 800-1000 not to argue but i gotta disagree

most of the gain is in the velocity consistency, lowering your average velocity difference . if you run both your highest and lowest velocity in a ballistic drop table changing only the velocity, it'll turn your round likely point of impact into a , just as wide oblong likely point of impact

i think if you tried your test again loading your best with some once fired rp or win, then turning those same ones you would see an improvement in velocity the first loading after turning ..

id say the worst neck wall differenced brass i have experienced would be win super x

 

[Orange Dust]

at what distance ? if 200-300 sure but 800-1000 not to argue but i gotta disagree

most of the gain is in the velocity consistency, lowering your average velocity difference . if you run both your highest and lowest velocity in a ballistic drop table changing only the velocity, it'll turn your round likely point of impact into a , just as wide oblong likely point of impact

i think if you tried your test again loading your best with some once fired rp or win, then turning those same ones you would see an improvement in velocity the first loading after turning ..

id say the worst neck wall differenced brass i have experienced would be win super x

Exactly. If you want to shoot far, You need the most consistent ammo possible in any rifle to get the most from it. It is a lot of work preparing and tuning it to the rifle. AND Yes, it does make a difference in long range shooting. You can usually find a load that is "good enough" to shoot 3-400 yds with only one trip to the range. If you want to break the 600yd barrier ethically, plan on all summer with a good rifle.

 

[yobuck]

Id be telling the "gunsmith" that I want a no turn neck, then buy 280 cases and just load and go shoot them.

 

[JSHKS]

I'm not arguing and don't want this to turn into that. Opinions are like elbows,everyone has a couple.

What are you seeing in gains at your distances of 300-1000+. I may revisit my neck turning on a couple of rigs.

 

[yobuck]

No argument is intended, But fact is, neck turning is, or is isn't a requirement, determined by the dimensions of a custom chamber, and "not" based on the desire to do it or not do it by an individual.
Some shooters "prefer"to just true up the necks by taking just a very small amount off the high spots. Especially if the neck size has been reduced by any appreciable amount.
It may or may not have an affect on accuracy, but it will have none on the velocity of the cartridge unless the neck is tight, and is causing high pressure.
Fact is it would be easy to ruin brass as a result of neck turning for a chamber not requiring it.
I would suggest taking a fired case from the gun in question, and "without" resizing it, try to put a bullet tip first into the case.
Even a loaded bullet would work for that.
If it goes in without resistance, for sure no neck turning is needed, and would be typical of factory chambers. If it goes in with a very slight amount of resistance, that would be typical of a custom no turn chamber. Of coarse if it wont go in at all, or without a fair amount of force, then turning would be advisable in order to keep chamber pressure under control. Many "good" gunsmiths, will indicate the neck dimensions on the barrel after they chamber it.