T/c encore breech plug modification

[Wolf76]

I'm glad that it works for you.

Yes the Paramount uses that leaking vari-flame system. CVA made a huge mistake in many people's minds going with that system and are already sending out replacement self-head spacing bolt springs trying to correct the leaking issues. For some it has helped, for others they leak just as bad. There's a ton of information floating around about the vari-flame system, not much of it good.
When the Paramount first hit retailers, so many owners complained about leaks, so the replacement heavy duty bolt spring helped. CVA sends those out free of cost to owners having issues.
However, it didn't help a lot of owners, thus someone else created a system to completely and forever stop all leaks.

https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/product/paramount-arrowhead-gen2-upgrade/

This is the same business that also created a new ignition system for both the RUM and UF rifles. It does the same thing, it will never leak and never needs replacement.

There clearly are better systems than the variflame. I'm not going to spend $250 on a BP and modules.
You are on the upper end of the muzzleloading spectrum. Custom gun (decked out) and it looks shoots great. Super cool for you. Most people don't spend $2K plus on a ML.
If you step back to where most people play ($600 or less rifle) and sub 200 yards shooting distance - you realize that 1-2 moa kills a lot of deer. Also keep in mind the straight wall regulations effectively relegated muzzleloaders to black powder season (as MLs were often used in place of a slug gun).
I'm well aware of Jeff, Luke, Hankins,etc They are a wealth of knowledge. I shoot a smokeless encore, so I get what you're saying.
Its a moral victory just getting people to stop shooting powerbelts and pellets.
IMO the variflame is a nice step up from the 209. But you need to keep the plug clean or it doesn't seal perfectly. The 209 didn't seal perfectly on any gun I've ever owned either.

 

[ENCORE]

I understand. Its why I told the OP that for just one or two shots per year, he should just remain with the system he currently has. It wouldn't pay for him to invest the money into another system.
However, there are many frustrated shooters who's problems can be fixed indefinitely. For the guy that has one rifle that he plans on keeping and handing down, its worth saving up to replace the OEM system.
I also suggested there are other ways, much cheaper ways, to make his Encore platform rifle more accurate.

 

[hammer111]

I wouldn't put that system in the worst rifle I've ever owned. Sorry.

Sorry I'm not following your posts.
First you say the encore can be made a performer to 200 yards and beyond.

The next post you say it's the worst rifle you ever owned. I'm confused.

Yes I'm using triple 7 pellets. First chance I get I'm going to bh209.

It also sounds like all manufacturers are having issues with the breech plug.

 

[meatyrem]

120gr blackhorn 250gr Barnes tmz (take the sabots that come in box and throw away) yellow 50cal crush rib sabot for boattail bullet win 209 primer pro hunter
5/8" group

 

[ENCORE]

Sorry I'm not following your posts.
First you say the encore can be made a performer to 200 yards and beyond.

The next post you say it's the worst rifle you ever owned. I'm confused.

Yes I'm using triple 7 pellets. First chance I get I'm going to bh209.

It also sounds like all manufacturers are having issues with the breech plug.

You didn't follow correctly and that's ok. You may have been confused with the vari-flam post?

I would not put the vari-flame system in the worst rifle I've ever owned..... That statement was directed towards the vari-flame system... not the Encore.

As for your T7 pellets...…… you have to swab between shots. T7 is known to leave what's called a "crud ring" in the barrel from ignition. Most all of that has to do with the properties of T7 itself. Its the exact reason why loading for a 2nd shot is hard.
T7 isn't a bad propellant, but swabbing between shots is generally a must. IMO the best product to swab T7, and clean it, is Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine. For swabbing between shots, you want an ever so slightly damp patch. Cleaning you can use a wet patch. For swabbing, run a damp patch up and down until you reach the breech plug. Pull the patch, turn it over and repeat.
I've shot many CASES of T7 pellets through an UF BP Xpress and Butch's works.

As for the Encore...…… for a tip open rifle, it would be my only choice. I've owned many of them along with Pro Hunters. Never an FX model though. Every Encore or Pro Hunter I've owned was a .5moa rifle at 200yds..... on my good days.
The Encore rifle is IMO the easiest of the tip open rifles to modify and for very reasonable costs. And it can make a significant difference with the available modifications.
Trigger springs can be changed to lighten the trigger pull. Also the addition of HD spring sets for the locking bolt, firing pin, hinge pins and hammer springs. Head space can be improved with shims behind the breech. These modifications when complete can make a rifle feel like a completely different rifle, and yes, it can help with accuracy.
https://www.bellmtcs.com/

Unfortunately...... manufacturers have problems with getting it right with leaking breech plugs and primer pockets. I really don't know of one that has the perfect production rifle setup. Shooters are trying to correct the manufacturer's problems with shims, "O" rings, vent liners and you name it.
Take even a semi-custom build like the Ultimate Firearms BP Xpress and its little brother the Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader (RUM). The UF at least uses better primer carrier brass at least, whereas Remington uses a much less quality brass case, which can vary up to .020" in case head thickness. Its almost impossible to get a perfect seal of the brass case to the nipple when the case head thickness is that far off.
So yes, I'd say all the manufacturers have at least some problem with their ignition systems in one way or another.

As more or less pointed out by Wolf76, most muzzleloader shooters are what I like to refer as "extended season hunters". No disrespect intended to any. In most cases the owners just deal with the cards they've been delt, others will look for information on better charges and/or sabot and bullet combinations and be satisfied.
Those who utilize their muzzleloaders more often, if they'd like, can make significent changes to their rifles to better them and eliminate all blow back and leaks. That's where costs increase when you change the OEM systems to a quality system that works and lasts.

 

[hammer111]

You didn't follow correctly and that's ok. You may have been confused with the vari-flam post?

I would not put the vari-flame system in the worst rifle I've ever owned..... That statement was directed towards the vari-flame system... not the Encore.

As for your T7 pellets...…… you have to swab between shots. T7 is known to leave what's called a "crud ring" in the barrel from ignition. Most all of that has to do with the properties of T7 itself. Its the exact reason why loading for a 2nd shot is hard.
T7 isn't a bad propellant, but swabbing between shots is generally a must. IMO the best product to swab T7, and clean it, is Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine. For swabbing between shots, you want an ever so slightly damp patch. Cleaning you can use a wet patch. For swabbing, run a damp patch up and down until you reach the breech plug. Pull the patch, turn it over and repeat.
I've shot many CASES of T7 pellets through an UF BP Xpress and Butch's works.

As for the Encore...…… for a tip open rifle, it would be my only choice. I've owned many of them along with Pro Hunters. Never an FX model though. Every Encore or Pro Hunter I've owned was a .5moa rifle at 200yds..... on my good days.
The Encore rifle is IMO the easiest of the tip open rifles to modify and for very reasonable costs. And it can make a significant difference with the available modifications.
Trigger springs can be changed to lighten the trigger pull. Also the addition of HD spring sets for the locking bolt, firing pin, hinge pins and hammer springs. Head space can be improved with shims behind the breech. These modifications when complete can make a rifle feel like a completely different rifle, and yes, it can help with accuracy.
https://www.bellmtcs.com/

Unfortunately...... manufacturers have problems with getting it right with leaking breech plugs and primer pockets. I really don't know of one that has the perfect production rifle setup. Shooters are trying to correct the manufacturer's problems with shims, "O" rings, vent liners and you name it.
Take even a semi-custom build like the Ultimate Firearms BP Xpress and its little brother the Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader (RUM). The UF at least uses better primer carrier brass at least, whereas Remington uses a much less quality brass case, which can vary up to .020" in case head thickness. Its almost impossible to get a perfect seal of the brass case to the nipple when the case head thickness is that far off.
So yes, I'd say all the manufacturers have at least some problem with their ignition systems in one way or another.

As more or less pointed out by Wolf76, most muzzleloader shooters are what I like to refer as "extended season hunters". No disrespect intended to any. In most cases the owners just deal with the cards they've been delt, others will look for information on better charges and/or sabot and bullet combinations and be satisfied.
Those who utilize their muzzleloaders more often, if they'd like, can make significent changes to their rifles to better them and eliminate all blow back and leaks. That's where costs increase when you change the OEM systems to a quality system that works and lasts.

Ok now I understand, I thought that was what you meant after I posted.

I've probably shot this gun less than 20 times. I haven't noticed any issues other than accuracy , which I guess is related to the powder.
I haven't noticed blow back or leaking. How does leaking occur, what do I look for?

 

[Peddler 76]

I shoot a TC G2 Contender .45. Blackhorn 209 is all I've ever used with CCI 209M primers. I use PR 195 Dead Center .357/ 45 cal. sabots. Never had any problems at all.

 

[ENCORE]

Ok now I understand, I thought that was what you meant after I posted.

I've probably shot this gun less than 20 times. I haven't noticed any issues other than accuracy , which I guess is related to the powder.
I haven't noticed blow back or leaking. How does leaking occur, what do I look for?

The primers will come out blackened. Totally different than before being shot.

There's a lot of contributing factors to accuracy, even more when you talk extreme accuracy. Scope, mount, rings, torques, rest, hold, bench.... I'll just tell you there's a lot more to extreme accuracy than most realize.
Everybody shoots "dime size groups"

Once you make the final decision to make some changes, there are many that can help. Just sort out the different suggestions, make the changes and just start shooting. Please, don't expect to get your muzzleloader out and shoot it a couple times and think you'll be shooting REAL dime size groups. It just doesn't happen that way. There are guys that can hit the end of a pencil at 100yds with CF target rifles, yet can't his the time in the photo above with a muzzleloader.

 

[hammer111]

The primers will come out blackened. Totally different than before being shot.

There's a lot of contributing factors to accuracy, even more when you talk extreme accuracy. Scope, mount, rings, torques, rest, hold, bench.... I'll just tell you there's a lot more to extreme accuracy than most realize.
Everybody shoots "dime size groups"

View attachment 164632

Once you make the final decision to make some changes, there are many that can help. Just sort out the different suggestions, make the changes and just start shooting. Please, don't expect to get your muzzleloader out and shoot it a couple times and think you'll be shooting REAL dime size groups. It just doesn't happen that way. There are guys that can hit the end of a pencil at 100yds with CF target rifles, yet can't his the time in the photo above with a muzzleloader.

Got it my primers are clean.this the one I have. There so many things you can do to the gun. It can be confusing.
I'd get some work done, but don't want to go broke. Would need a reputable Smith to use.

 

[Darrell Engebretson]

What I've read is the 209 primers have too much energy they can lift the bullet off the powder before the powder completely ignites. Creating flyers.

Add to that, they are very dirty. I experienced this yesterday while sighting in my encore. After a couple shots I couldn't get the bullet far enough down the barrel to seat the bullet on top of the powder.

My shots were everywhere.went home cleaned gun and first shot at 25 y was 2" off center. Second shot I couldn't seat without taping the ram rod with a hammer.

I think I need this mod. I'd like to buy a pug already modified.

If you are getting that much fowling i din't believe it's from the primer.

 

[hammer111]

It's something I 've come across in searching problems with the encore.
Don't know if it's true or not. I don't think fouling is primarily from the primers but a contributing factor.

 

[BountyHunter]

What I've read is the 209 primers have too much energy they can lift the bullet off the powder before the powder completely ignites. Creating flyers.

Add to that, they are very dirty. I experienced this yesterday while sighting in my encore. After a couple shots I couldn't get the bullet far enough down the barrel to seat the bullet on top of the powder.

My shots were everywhere.went home cleaned gun and first shot at 25 y was 2" off center. Second shot I couldn't seat without taping the ram rod with a hammer.

I think I need this mod. I'd like to buy a pug already modified.

Bet you were using 777. With 777 that is a huge issue. Go to blackthorn 209 powder. 777 requires special 1/4 power mizzleloading primers but you still get that crud ring with 777. Bh 209 and regular primers is the way to go.

 

[meatyrem]

I recently had found the small steel rings at the far end of the breech plug (opposite the primer) had come apart and was thinking of switching to the vari flame breech plug but now I'm not sure.
emailed TC and they are sending me new ring in the mail. Still waiting.

 

[meatyrem]

Bet you were using 777. With 777 that is a huge issue. Go to blackthorn 209 powder. 777 requires special 1/4 power mizzleloading primers but you still get that crud ring with 777. Bh 209 and regular primers is the way to go.

I had hang fire with the muzzleloading primers. Too many so I just went back to the win 209. I really shouldn't mess with mine as it's well under an inch
Only two shots but they are all like this.

and the end result