Shot groupings

If es/sd is causing grouping issues at 100 id hate to see those spreads! Lol
I'm an unrepentant numbers nerd and love me some statistics, but agree that yes at 100 yards it's not going to cause a 1" spread like this.

Flip side I do chrono pretty much everything just to know, but I use an LR and not something hanging off the barrel.
 
I'm an unrepentant numbers nerd and love me some statistics, but agree that yes at 100 yards it's not going to cause a 1" spread like this.

Flip side I do chrono pretty much everything just to know, but I use an LR and not something hanging off the barrel.
I have a v3 and wish I had a lab radar for this exact reason. The POI shift makes it hard to justify using more than once in a great while when I need to chrono a new load.
 
If es/sd is causing grouping issues at 100 id hate to see those spreads! Lol

I did a satterlee at 650 and thought it wasn't far enough to really see the results I wanted.
It's the ES/SD on the Chronograph and target that tell the story. No If you are shooting under 500yds. Beyond that it changes. I am reading here about people shooting 1000yrs, and not paying much attention to those two Items. Another is powder and Temp Stability. I work on getting it all down to the smallest group and and lowest numbers. Some to the friends I had, would have me shot there rifles with different loads for grouping. I no great shot either, but generally could see how the rifle was doing with different loads. That was a .243 that we couldn't get under 1-1/2" groups. It was doing worst than that when we started. The forearm was pushing the barrel over a lot to one side and up pressure up too. We did change it from a 4" group. My thing is Accuracies, and velocity.
 
I'm an unrepentant numbers nerd and love me some statistics, but agree that yes at 100 yards it's not going to cause a 1" spread like this.

Flip side I do chrono pretty much everything just to know, but I use an LR and not something hanging off the barrel.
I use a magnetospeed that hangs off the barrel it,s good if you don't use the muzzle brake adaptor which is too heavy and affects the barrel harmonics but using the the lightweight strap it's pretty good,another good thing is it's easy to set up.
 
I work up a load first by looking for high pressures in my loads. That generally takes about 10-12 shots to see where that's at. I watch for the vertical string at the same time. I really should have my Chronograph out at the same time. I haven't all the times, but going to try and make that happen going forward. This is the place for a learning curb for sure.
 
I use a magnetospeed that hangs off the barrel it,s good if you don't use the muzzle brake adaptor which is too heavy and affects the barrel harmonics but using the the lightweight strap it's pretty good,another good thing is it's easy to set up.
They work and it can change harmonic balance some. You can shoot it two ways. To see what effect it has on the harmonic. 1 with it on and 2. without it to see how the grouping is doing and if any has changed.
 
My thoughts are #1 your group is plenty good for hunting.#2 are you shooting to attain a good group or a realistic group for hunting?I have never been able to let my barrel cool down between shots when hunting as I have never had an animal go on pause between shots.I want to know what the group is if you have to fire 2 or more shots if you did not drop the animal on the #1 shot.
As to bullets shooting more accurate at longer ranges.This is a fact especially with high BC boat tail bullets.My270 WSM shoots smaller groups at 200 yards + then 100 yards,At 100 yards most groups are 2" using the 150 Accubond LR and closer to an actual inch at 200 and still under 2" at 300.It takes that long for any yaw to work out.That is why most bench rest shooters prefer a flat base for shorter ranges .Not JMHO,Huntz
 
They work and it can change harmonic balance some. You can shoot it two ways. To see what effect it has on the harmonic. 1 with it on and 2. without it to see how the grouping is doing and if any has changed.
With most rifles it works with very little affect as long you don't use the large muzzle break adaptor, but your point is well made.
 
my factory barreled browning in both 280 ai and 6.5 creed will put 5 shots into a 0.40 group @200 yards with hornadys eld x all day every day there are some factory rifles that will out shoot custom barrels
Sadly true, and I've had my share of custom guns with accuracy that could easily be surpassed by a $700 off the shelf production gun. This, however, I've come to learn, has more to do with selection of components and who does the work. You'll get better results giving crappy components to a master gunsmith/machinist than you will giving exceptional components to a fly-by-night "gunsmith" that cuts a chamber here and there on the weekends. You have to combine the 2 best options in order to get something that would upstage that Browning. And it's real tough to upstage .4"@200, but by upstage, I mean that it will put most any load, not just the "preferred" load into that kind of hole and will give same POI every time. I've had one or two factory guns that would pretty much do that, but they an anomaly, and not the norm. Accuracy isn't the only reason to have a custom rifle built, though. There's balance, weight, shootability, how the scope comes to the eye, LOP, trigger enhancements, and mainly cartridge selection just to name a few. That doesn't even consider if someone wants a dedicated target gun for any level of competition.

Good buddy of mine has an X-Bolt LR in .28 Nosler that he's had put 3 shots in a quarter inch @400 yds. He's a much better shot than me. He uses a huge European scope that weighs nearly as much as the gun. He missed some deer from 300 yards to out a little farther and had to track a couple he did hit with that gun. He was careful to use temp-stable powder, but he figured out his cold bore shot was enough different at those ranges to cause his issues. Being new to longer range (than average) shooting and with a new rifle, he hadn't anticipared this being such an issue. Another issue was the factory LOP was way too long for him and he was reaching for the trigger. Something that wasn't an issue on the bench shooting groups. He ordered a new Fierce in .300 Win Mag in the Spring, and spent time shooting it over the Summer and Fall. This past year, problem was solved. Everything hit the dirt DRT out to change over 400. Everything fit better, and the cold bore was much closer to warm barrel POI. A Fierce isn't a custom gun, but it uses better components put together by competent smiths. They do make mistakes because it is still a production item. He could have designed it a little different if he had the oppprtunity to order it as a full custom to make it even better. He said it shoots sub-MOA, but will not shoot 1/4"@400yds. It was still the better gun in the field for him when it counted, though. By definition, anything "custom" is made to individual taste, and is likely one of a kind in some way. For someone who's shot enough to know what helps them shoot better and have an idea of exactly how they'd like a rifle to feel and perform, a phone call with a proven professional smith is in order to achieve the ultimate performance for whatever that intended purpose is. If you achieve it off the shelf, it's blind luck. Practicing with what you have will always bring better outcomes, also. Depends on your budget and time constraints.
 
I think that is sound advice! but I will push back on the 100 yard grouping versus 200-300 plus yard groupings. This has been tested extensively and has not been validated. If the gun groups well at 200 or 300 yards it will group well at 100 yards. No bullets don't stabilize and shrink groups the farther they fly. Garbage in, Garbage out...

Now, if anyone, not calling you out, wants to disprove this? Please invite me to witness, Applied Ballistics will pay for you to discredit these claims. Free ammo, free trip etc... It has yet to be validated that groups group better at 200 yards plus. I learned this the hard way! Got my butt handed to me by Brian Litz. I met him at Berger one day when he was visiting.

What you guys will see with groups shrinking at distance is an issue of too much power on your optics, parallax, etc. At distance you are more focused on a finner (smaller) point of Aim, so you think your groups are shrinking, in reality you shot better. Power down your scopes or use a smaller target for your POA, like the triangle of a target, see picture below. My POA was the far orange triangle . Yes I got excited and pulled my 5th shot on my new 300 Norma barrel, yes it had zero break in done.... which goes to show is barrel break in really View attachment 356167 necessary... depends on your barrel, I haven't to do it, but that's another thread :) yes the POI is not my POA, if you shoot out your POA what are you aiming at?... just a friendly tip
Well here is one for you. During World War II in the South Pacific my dad sat and watched a 50 caliber with tracers at night. He noted that the tracers would begin to move into an outward sprial and then return to center and then again go back to outward sprial and then come back to center.

i would say that at any of these give yardages the groups would have been closure than at others. I suspect that the less-than perfect bullet manufactured off center densities might have caused a slight helix flight. Similar to a armature vibration at specific RPMs.

Anyone with a better explanation?
 
From what I can see it's really gets into the ES/SD to get the groups to gather. I have been purchasing equipment like crazy in the last year to get myself into those very low ES/SD. There a lot of work on the cases that needed to be done to get there. From what I have read. Powder Temp Stability works into this too. I guess I was lucky I used mostly the powder that the Long Range Match Shooter use.
Just my 4 cents

ES/SD is important, however, they are just part of the equation. Kind of like BC. A lot of people look at BC as the end all be all and it's not. It again is part of an equation. Form Factor is probably a better number to look at since BC changes with velocity. Don't get hung up on SD/ES on a 5 shot group because the representation isn't accurate with a minimal sample size. If you really want SD/ES information, shoot 20+ rounds. The more you shoot in the string the more accurate the data will be.

OP,

Personally, I find most carbon barrels suck when it comes to 5+ shot groups. They tend to heat up quickly and cool quickly. I assume this is what you are using.

If these were my groups, I'd either 1) run a ladder test in the specific range with .1 increments. or 2) I'd add .1 or .2 grains to the existing load and see if it brings them back together. I'd then work my seating depth by .006 per group. Not .005 and not .010. It's a shared perspective among many top BR or F class shooters that .006 is a "magic" number for nodes (Hybrids aside. They are different altogether) Your pictures are either vertical or horizontal so I wouldn't say you are out of an accuracy node. Pick a primer and pick a powder and stick with it. If you change one thing in your load, you change everything. primer seat depth, annealing, powder charge, bullet seat depth etc...
 
I think that is sound advice! but I will push back on the 100 yard grouping versus 200-300 plus yard groupings. This has been tested extensively and has not been validated. If the gun groups well at 200 or 300 yards it will group well at 100 yards. No bullets don't stabilize and shrink groups the farther they fly. Garbage in, Garbage out...

Now, if anyone, not calling you out, wants to disprove this? Please invite me to witness, Applied Ballistics will pay for you to discredit these claims. Free ammo, free trip etc... It has yet to be validated that groups group better at 200 yards plus. I learned this the hard way! Got my butt handed to me by Brian Litz. I met him at Berger one day when he was visiting.

What you guys will see with groups shrinking at distance is an issue of too much power on your optics, parallax, etc. At distance you are more focused on a finner (smaller) point of Aim, so you think your groups are shrinking, in reality you shot better. Power down your scopes or use a smaller target for your POA, like the triangle of a target, see picture below. My POA was the far orange triangle . Yes I got excited and pulled my 5th shot on my new 300 Norma barrel, yes it had zero break in done.... which goes to show is barrel break in really View attachment 356167 necessary... depends on your barrel, I haven't to do it, but that's another thread :) yes the POI is not my POA, if you shoot out your POA what are you aiming at?... just a friendly tip
I agree with u and I had more.. I'm a fast shooter.. I try my reload at 100.mt and when I have a 5 shot group done in 5 maybe 8 seconds that shows me 3/4 moa or 1 moa I'm super happy.. .. point is if I take my sweet sleepy time to shot.. I get always at Lear 1/2 moa.. I guess not other statements from u was better than this one if u put garbage in.. garbage will come out!!! well said!!!
 
Just my 4 cents

ES/SD is important, however, they are just part of the equation. Kind of like BC. A lot of people look at BC as the end all be all and it's not. It again is part of an equation. Form Factor is probably a better number to look at since BC changes with velocity. Don't get hung up on SD/ES on a 5 shot group because the representation isn't accurate with a minimal sample size. If you really want SD/ES information, shoot 20+ rounds. The more you shoot in the string the more accurate the data will be.

OP,

Personally, I find most carbon barrels suck when it comes to 5+ shot groups. They tend to heat up quickly and cool quickly. I assume this is what you are using.

If these were my groups, I'd either 1) run a ladder test in the specific range with .1 increments. or 2) I'd add .1 or .2 grains to the existing load and see if it brings them back together. I'd then work my seating depth by .006 per group. Not .005 and not .010. It's a shared perspective among many top BR or F class shooters that .006 is a "magic" number for nodes (Hybrids aside. They are different altogether) Your pictures are either vertical or horizontal so I wouldn't say you are out of an accuracy node. Pick a primer and pick a powder and stick with it. If you change one thing in your load, you change everything. primer seat depth, annealing, powder charge, bullet seat depth etc...I
I realize it's only part of the setup on a load for whatever rifle. I do every step I know of to a case, before really sitting down to work up a load. That's top end brass to start with. High BC bullets. I generally use Fed 210 primers, and H4350 powder. I have others types of primer, 210 are my friend. The SD/ES only shows how you are doing out the barrel. I am not a heavy bullet user nor use Target bullets that have better BC for hunting. In my 308 N.M I use 165gr Accubond, and 200grs in my 338WG running 3300fpgs and 3230fps. respectfully. The rest of it is finding out what the rifle likes. I will put down the tube a 100 rounds before really start to fine tune the rifle. Tim will tell, on how I do with this rifle. You won't find those loading in your handbook. Generally I hold my shots to 500yds, but with the new wildcat I am hopefully moving out the 700 to 800 yards. I never tried match shooting, but I think it's great. They figure out what we need to do. The other is once I come up with a load for that rifle I generally don't change it. Take Care!
 
I think that is sound advice! but I will push back on the 100 yard grouping versus 200-300 plus yard groupings. This has been tested extensively and has not been validated. If the gun groups well at 200 or 300 yards it will group well at 100 yards. No bullets don't stabilize and shrink groups the farther they fly. Garbage in, Garbage out...

Now, if anyone, not calling you out, wants to disprove this? Please invite me to witness, Applied Ballistics will pay for you to discredit these claims. Free ammo, free trip etc... It has yet to be validated that groups group better at 200 yards plus. I learned this the hard way! Got my butt handed to me by Brian Litz. I met him at Berger one day when he was visiting.

What you guys will see with groups shrinking at distance is an issue of too much power on your optics, parallax, etc. At distance you are more focused on a finner (smaller) point of Aim, so you think your groups are shrinking, in reality you shot better. Power down your scopes or use a smaller target for your POA, like the triangle of a target, see picture below. My POA was the far orange triangle . Yes I got excited and pulled my 5th shot on my new 300 Norma barrel, yes it had zero break in done.... which goes to show is barrel break in really View attachment 356167 necessary... depends on your barrel, I haven't to do it, but that's another thread :) yes the POI is not my POA, if you shoot out your POA what are you aiming at?... just a friendly tip


Good info and correct, thank you.
I will add just a wee bit more.
Anybody can hit a target at 100 yards. No time spent on breathing, heartbeat, and trigger control with follow thru.
At distance, the further the POA is, the more time is spent ensuring everything is correct, and the more we check heat, cold, mirages, angle of wind and angle to target.

As a man with great training told me, "Aim small, miss small". Aim for a button, or a hair, not the broadside of a barn, or the animal.
 

Recent Posts

Top