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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Gunsmithing
Savage action accurate ?
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<blockquote data-quote="Trickymissfit" data-source="post: 506403" data-attributes="member: 25383"><p>you have never offended me! I actually enjoy your input more than most folks that post here. Some of your ideas are very good, and of course some I think differently. That's what makes it so interesting. There's been exactly one post ever on this board that rumpled my feathers, and now I just grin!</p><p> </p><p>A few years back a bunch of friends and I ran some tests on barrel flex due to an email I recieved from Dan Lilja. Mostly I just didn't believe what he had to say all the way, but as usual Dan was spot on. I made a block out of 8620 steel that had three threads cut in it. 1.06-16, 1.06-18, and 1.06-20. I then drilled and taped two #10-32 holes on one side of each thread, and cut a slot to also allow me to be able to clamp the thread form in place later. Then I took two pieces of steel and turned threads to match the threads in the block for the best fit I could achive. Each bar was about 16" long, and started out as 1.25" in diameter. With the shoulder seater and the block clamped down on a surface plate, I was still able to flex it slightly by had. I then turned the OD down about three inches, and made a nut. It had about 40 in. lb. of torque on it. There was less flex (less than one half for sure). There was no difference between the 1.06-18 thread and the 16 thread that I could see. The third piece of steel was a cut off savage barrel that was junk. With the factory nut torqued to 40 in. lb. I got the same results as the other with a nut. The flex was greatly reduced to about 25% of what it was before when I clamped the block around the thread, but the difference was much less noticable with the savage barrel. </p><p> </p><p> All this got me to thinking, and the boss and I got the folks upstairs to give us a mechanical CAD program (my boss was an avid target shooter). In my spare time I built a couple generic actions that were similar but for the barrel thread setup. Boy did I learn how far out in left field we really were! I then started playing with different chamber pressure spikes, and the program showed me what was happening in micro seconds. Kinda scarey. I then built an action that had a 1.25-24 thread with a bridge diameter of 1.75" on the PC. Same results exactly. But with the stretched thread the nut was still leaving the shoulder, but with a fraction of the amount. (all threads were setup with about .004" total clearence which is very tight). But even after leaving the shoulder the barrel thread stayed in place due to a constant contact with the female thread form. With zero rotational torque the shoulder setup flexed far less, but with a small rotation added the barrel thread tried to rotate just like the bullet does. The one with near zero clearence flexed a lot less. Then I kicked up the pressure spike to real world pressures (65K), and I could see the bridge moving as well as everything else (note: the bridge was spec'd as 4350 pretreat steel with a 28-32rc). This when I learned that the barrel was actually twisting as the bullet was pushed thru it, and then sorta unwound behind it (bolt tried to to the same thing by the way). So I build another action setup with 1.25" of female thread, but with a counter bore in it that's 1.062" x .25" deep to help keep everything strait. Big difference with the shoulder lock up! The thread form was still flexing, but the barrel was not moving all over the place nearly as much up and down. This worked so well that at two guys I know built actions off that idea. I know it's long. but that's how I came up with my ideas.</p><p> </p><p>I have seen quite a few Savages shoot in the mid threes right out of the box. I don't figure it's the barrel nut, but a better quality barrel. I have had one that would dip into the 3/16" area on a rare occassion, and was always good for high twos and low three's. Yet I've never seen a Savage shoot better with a barrel seated off the shoulder, but I have seen more than one Remington shoot better with a barrel nut. I know this is unscientific because the barrels were not the same in either case.</p><p> </p><p>As for the recoil lug: I said it once before that I was doing the wedge setup almost fifteen years ago. I'm kinda convinced that the recoil lug that Savage and Remington use is the weak link, but on the otherhand I do not have a better idea without a completely new action.</p><p>gary</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Trickymissfit, post: 506403, member: 25383"] you have never offended me! I actually enjoy your input more than most folks that post here. Some of your ideas are very good, and of course some I think differently. That's what makes it so interesting. There's been exactly one post ever on this board that rumpled my feathers, and now I just grin! A few years back a bunch of friends and I ran some tests on barrel flex due to an email I recieved from Dan Lilja. Mostly I just didn't believe what he had to say all the way, but as usual Dan was spot on. I made a block out of 8620 steel that had three threads cut in it. 1.06-16, 1.06-18, and 1.06-20. I then drilled and taped two #10-32 holes on one side of each thread, and cut a slot to also allow me to be able to clamp the thread form in place later. Then I took two pieces of steel and turned threads to match the threads in the block for the best fit I could achive. Each bar was about 16" long, and started out as 1.25" in diameter. With the shoulder seater and the block clamped down on a surface plate, I was still able to flex it slightly by had. I then turned the OD down about three inches, and made a nut. It had about 40 in. lb. of torque on it. There was less flex (less than one half for sure). There was no difference between the 1.06-18 thread and the 16 thread that I could see. The third piece of steel was a cut off savage barrel that was junk. With the factory nut torqued to 40 in. lb. I got the same results as the other with a nut. The flex was greatly reduced to about 25% of what it was before when I clamped the block around the thread, but the difference was much less noticable with the savage barrel. All this got me to thinking, and the boss and I got the folks upstairs to give us a mechanical CAD program (my boss was an avid target shooter). In my spare time I built a couple generic actions that were similar but for the barrel thread setup. Boy did I learn how far out in left field we really were! I then started playing with different chamber pressure spikes, and the program showed me what was happening in micro seconds. Kinda scarey. I then built an action that had a 1.25-24 thread with a bridge diameter of 1.75" on the PC. Same results exactly. But with the stretched thread the nut was still leaving the shoulder, but with a fraction of the amount. (all threads were setup with about .004" total clearence which is very tight). But even after leaving the shoulder the barrel thread stayed in place due to a constant contact with the female thread form. With zero rotational torque the shoulder setup flexed far less, but with a small rotation added the barrel thread tried to rotate just like the bullet does. The one with near zero clearence flexed a lot less. Then I kicked up the pressure spike to real world pressures (65K), and I could see the bridge moving as well as everything else (note: the bridge was spec'd as 4350 pretreat steel with a 28-32rc). This when I learned that the barrel was actually twisting as the bullet was pushed thru it, and then sorta unwound behind it (bolt tried to to the same thing by the way). So I build another action setup with 1.25" of female thread, but with a counter bore in it that's 1.062" x .25" deep to help keep everything strait. Big difference with the shoulder lock up! The thread form was still flexing, but the barrel was not moving all over the place nearly as much up and down. This worked so well that at two guys I know built actions off that idea. I know it's long. but that's how I came up with my ideas. I have seen quite a few Savages shoot in the mid threes right out of the box. I don't figure it's the barrel nut, but a better quality barrel. I have had one that would dip into the 3/16" area on a rare occassion, and was always good for high twos and low three's. Yet I've never seen a Savage shoot better with a barrel seated off the shoulder, but I have seen more than one Remington shoot better with a barrel nut. I know this is unscientific because the barrels were not the same in either case. As for the recoil lug: I said it once before that I was doing the wedge setup almost fifteen years ago. I'm kinda convinced that the recoil lug that Savage and Remington use is the weak link, but on the otherhand I do not have a better idea without a completely new action. gary [/QUOTE]
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