Were you quoting me in agreement? Haha because I agree with what you are saying.
Salt Bath Annealing Doesn't Work! by AMP
- Thread starter dok7mm
- Start date
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This AMP "study" sure has kicked up a hornets nest and a good lively discussion. This is a good thing.
I use the salt with great results. I also deprime and clean my cases before they go in the salt. This is first to ensure the salt gets up into the case and second to keep crud out of my salt.
I have never used an AMP machine but I do have some experience with designing and using coil induction heaters. When AMP tests their brass and gets nice clean hardness gradients as shown in their graphs, I believe it.
When I anneal, I am looking for consistent brass that is soft enough in the neck and shoulder to prevent split necks. Thats it. For me I have found a simple cheap process that achieves this. There definitely is not a pride of ownership thing with using this system versus an AMP. I would be proud to own that. Heck, I would get mine cerokoted with flames or skulls. I have expensive toys I am proud to own just like everyone here. In fact, I have a tricked out AI rifle that shoots about as good as a $500 factory savage out to 1000. For me it is worth the extra cost.
In some cases, the juice is not worth the squeeze.
I use the salt with great results. I also deprime and clean my cases before they go in the salt. This is first to ensure the salt gets up into the case and second to keep crud out of my salt.
I have never used an AMP machine but I do have some experience with designing and using coil induction heaters. When AMP tests their brass and gets nice clean hardness gradients as shown in their graphs, I believe it.
When I anneal, I am looking for consistent brass that is soft enough in the neck and shoulder to prevent split necks. Thats it. For me I have found a simple cheap process that achieves this. There definitely is not a pride of ownership thing with using this system versus an AMP. I would be proud to own that. Heck, I would get mine cerokoted with flames or skulls. I have expensive toys I am proud to own just like everyone here. In fact, I have a tricked out AI rifle that shoots about as good as a $500 factory savage out to 1000. For me it is worth the extra cost.
In some cases, the juice is not worth the squeeze.
David Sharp
New Member
Hi there everyone.
I am in the UK and shoot 1000yd benchrest with Savage 12 ftr in .308 and 6br custom. I stress relieve after every firing using the salt bath method and am more than pleased with the results.
Having recently read the AMP ramblings wherein they state categorically - "SALT BATH ANNEALING DOES NOT WORK" I felt my amateurish findings may be of interest, to whit
OBSERVATIONS ON USE OF LEE MELTER FOR MOLTEN SALT BATH ANNEALING
I began the salt bath journey a couple of months ago and have been perfectly happy with the results.
A paper by AMP, manufacturers/marketers of induction annealing equipment for cartridge brass, in which they claimed salt bath annealing simply did not work set me thinking.
Having already spoken with an independent annealing company here in the UK who confirmed that flash dipping my case necks in molten salts at 500 deg. C for 5 seconds would do the job and with greater certainty than using flame systems I set to work.
The case holder jig is arranged with a bottom plate 1" below the top of the melter pot.
It has holes in it for location of the case such that the shoulder is just in the hole.
The level of salt is set at 1" below the top of the melter pot so that none of the case body is immersed.
I took a number of identical S & B 0.308W cases all of which had been fired five times, neck sized, never heat treated. They were seperated into two random batches.
All necks measured 0.334" at case mouth.
I took a pair of mole grips and measured the pitch of their adjusting screw. It was 14 threads per inch which equates to 0.0714" per revolution. I felt that this would give me a fine enough control to detect neck deflection in which I was interested.
I placed the moles in the vice and carefully closed the jaws on the raw, untreated
cases by winding in the adjusting screw .
At 3/8 of a turn equivalent to crushing 0.0270" there was complete springback to the original diameter of 0.334"
At ½ of a turn equivalent to crushing 0.0358" there was a permanent deflection of 0.002".
When testing cases where the necks had been flash dipped at 500 deg C for 5 seconds the necks were permanently deformed 0.0010" at 3/8 of a turn and 0.004" at ½ a turn.
This indicated that the salt bath had certainly reduced stress in the necks.
To further test I placed a raw, untreated case neck in in the moles and barely closed the jaws then continued to tighten until I could go no further using fingers only. I just achieved one full turn.
When I repeated this with a flash dipped case the difference was immediately apparent as much less effort was required and I was able to achieve slightly over a turn and a half.
I AM HAPPY TO SAY I AM UNABLE TO ACCEPT AMP'S ASSERTION!
As an aside to this it is worth mentioning that having achieved 500 deg C (using a PID controller) I checked temperature at varying depths in the salt by raising and lowering the thermocouple. I feel that as long as the thermocouple probe is held off the base of the pot the salt temperature, to all intents and purposes is uniform throughout the bath.
The above deliberations took quite a while and I noticed the bath temperature dropping even though the PID was indicating it was in heating mode.
(I am using a small LEE melter)
It soon transpired that this was as a result of the Lee melter thermostat cutting out on overheat, presumably to being in a non-vented enclosure adjacent the heating element. This despite turning it up to Max. The best it would achieve was 440 deg. C.
I could have simply bypassed the Lee thermostat but being a cautious guy and wanting it to remain as a backstop in case of any failure of the PID I simply adjusted the stat internally by means of minutely reducing the length of the actuating mechanism. All sorted, job done.
I hope this may help and perhaps relieve any doubts.
I am in the UK and shoot 1000yd benchrest with Savage 12 ftr in .308 and 6br custom. I stress relieve after every firing using the salt bath method and am more than pleased with the results.
Having recently read the AMP ramblings wherein they state categorically - "SALT BATH ANNEALING DOES NOT WORK" I felt my amateurish findings may be of interest, to whit
OBSERVATIONS ON USE OF LEE MELTER FOR MOLTEN SALT BATH ANNEALING
I began the salt bath journey a couple of months ago and have been perfectly happy with the results.
A paper by AMP, manufacturers/marketers of induction annealing equipment for cartridge brass, in which they claimed salt bath annealing simply did not work set me thinking.
Having already spoken with an independent annealing company here in the UK who confirmed that flash dipping my case necks in molten salts at 500 deg. C for 5 seconds would do the job and with greater certainty than using flame systems I set to work.
The case holder jig is arranged with a bottom plate 1" below the top of the melter pot.
It has holes in it for location of the case such that the shoulder is just in the hole.
The level of salt is set at 1" below the top of the melter pot so that none of the case body is immersed.
I took a number of identical S & B 0.308W cases all of which had been fired five times, neck sized, never heat treated. They were seperated into two random batches.
All necks measured 0.334" at case mouth.
I took a pair of mole grips and measured the pitch of their adjusting screw. It was 14 threads per inch which equates to 0.0714" per revolution. I felt that this would give me a fine enough control to detect neck deflection in which I was interested.
I placed the moles in the vice and carefully closed the jaws on the raw, untreated
cases by winding in the adjusting screw .
At 3/8 of a turn equivalent to crushing 0.0270" there was complete springback to the original diameter of 0.334"
At ½ of a turn equivalent to crushing 0.0358" there was a permanent deflection of 0.002".
When testing cases where the necks had been flash dipped at 500 deg C for 5 seconds the necks were permanently deformed 0.0010" at 3/8 of a turn and 0.004" at ½ a turn.
This indicated that the salt bath had certainly reduced stress in the necks.
To further test I placed a raw, untreated case neck in in the moles and barely closed the jaws then continued to tighten until I could go no further using fingers only. I just achieved one full turn.
When I repeated this with a flash dipped case the difference was immediately apparent as much less effort was required and I was able to achieve slightly over a turn and a half.
I AM HAPPY TO SAY I AM UNABLE TO ACCEPT AMP'S ASSERTION!
As an aside to this it is worth mentioning that having achieved 500 deg C (using a PID controller) I checked temperature at varying depths in the salt by raising and lowering the thermocouple. I feel that as long as the thermocouple probe is held off the base of the pot the salt temperature, to all intents and purposes is uniform throughout the bath.
The above deliberations took quite a while and I noticed the bath temperature dropping even though the PID was indicating it was in heating mode.
(I am using a small LEE melter)
It soon transpired that this was as a result of the Lee melter thermostat cutting out on overheat, presumably to being in a non-vented enclosure adjacent the heating element. This despite turning it up to Max. The best it would achieve was 440 deg. C.
I could have simply bypassed the Lee thermostat but being a cautious guy and wanting it to remain as a backstop in case of any failure of the PID I simply adjusted the stat internally by means of minutely reducing the length of the actuating mechanism. All sorted, job done.
I hope this may help and perhaps relieve any doubts.
That's the overall feeling I'm getting after reading 13 pages of 'thread'.
It seems obvious that the salt bath method works, it just doesn't work to AMP's 'specifications' or in the way THEY think is 'best'. That's fine. People can 'choose' their method. It seems to me if you heat the proper area of brass, to the right temperature, for the correct amount of time, you will 'anneal' your case. Do it with the AMP unit, a blowtorch, or molten salt. Whatever fits your budget and/or 'philosophy' on how it should be done.
One 'take away' I do think was important/relevant was to punch out your expended primer before using the salt bath method so molten salt will enter the case EQUALLY, inside and out.
It seems obvious that the salt bath method works, it just doesn't work to AMP's 'specifications' or in the way THEY think is 'best'. That's fine. People can 'choose' their method. It seems to me if you heat the proper area of brass, to the right temperature, for the correct amount of time, you will 'anneal' your case. Do it with the AMP unit, a blowtorch, or molten salt. Whatever fits your budget and/or 'philosophy' on how it should be done.
One 'take away' I do think was important/relevant was to punch out your expended primer before using the salt bath method so molten salt will enter the case EQUALLY, inside and out.
Matt F
Member
Curious as to why nobody seems to think a candle is good for annealing brass anymore. You could anneal for less than a dollar.
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
Control over the process would be the biggest reason for any particular choice. No doubt any heat source will work if it is hot enough and you have the patience to work with it.
David Sharp
New Member
Candle has insufficent thermal energy to get neck to 500 deg c - but it will gradually get the whole case nice and warm - eventually!
Matt F
Member
But a candle burns at 1400C. Well above the 500C of the salt bath.
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
How many BTU's does it output? In an hour the first Lee casting pot that I looked at will output 1706 BTU's.
David Sharp
New Member
Candle is 80 watts, Lee pot is 500
I'm sticking with my Salt Bath Annealing.Like I posted a while back I over did the temp and time on 10 cases and put in water to stop annealing and they all crushed while trying to load a 150 gr Partition into the empty cases but the 10 I did correctly did not crush the necks so annealing for the good and bad DID in fact happen.
While not done in a lab it still showed me what I needed to see.
Great information here folks!Love this forum.
Just my 2 cents
Old Rooster
While not done in a lab it still showed me what I needed to see.
Great information here folks!Love this forum.
Just my 2 cents
Old Rooster
dok7mm
Well-Known Member
Having never tried salt bath, I'll not comment on how well it anneals brass cases. If it works for you, that's great.
What I do know is that I smile every time I run my brass thru the AMP unit. It's fast, easy and consistent. Pricey? Yes, but I consider it one of my best investments.
What I do know is that I smile every time I run my brass thru the AMP unit. It's fast, easy and consistent. Pricey? Yes, but I consider it one of my best investments.
Wedgy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2013
- Messages
- 3,220
I had ordered my salt bath unit about a week before the AMP article came out so imagine what I was thinking...LOL Did I just waste my money ? I have always torch annealed and in my welding experience have seen failures due to variations in time/temp exposure so I'm aware of it's possible shortcomings. The AMP/induction process is the most precise way but it doesn't mean it is the only way that works.
I just used my salt bath for the 1st time(sounds like a day at the spa) and despite the obvious dangers of getting burned by lava I think it is more repeatable than torch annealing. I do notice the temperature drops when doing 2 cases at a time in rapid succession so I slow down a bit so the temp stays where I want it. That also tells me that the thermometer works. I need to widen the shell holder slightly as the WSM cases bind a bit but other than that I am pleased with it as a lower cost alternative.
I just used my salt bath for the 1st time(sounds like a day at the spa) and despite the obvious dangers of getting burned by lava I think it is more repeatable than torch annealing. I do notice the temperature drops when doing 2 cases at a time in rapid succession so I slow down a bit so the temp stays where I want it. That also tells me that the thermometer works. I need to widen the shell holder slightly as the WSM cases bind a bit but other than that I am pleased with it as a lower cost alternative.
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