Redding instant indicator

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Jimm, Jul 29, 2006.

  1. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    I have been checking the shoulder expansion on some 300 winnie case that I have fired 4 to 5 times . I am using the Redding instant indicator to do this .

    About 95 % of the case measure 5 thou longer than the minimum datum line length . The other 5% are 6 to 7 thou longer . I am thinking this 5% represents cases that were subjected to excessive pressure because they were at the high end of ladder tests at charge weights pushing past safe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    What should I consider as being more true to my chamber size in order to set the shoulder back 1 to 2 thou with a body die ?

    Thanks for y'alls help , Jim B.
     
  2. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    The shortest ones.
     

  3. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    If those cases 6 to 7 thousandths longer caused no binding when you opened the bolt after firing them, they may well more closely match your bolt face to chamber shoulder maximum length.

    And if your brass is quite springy, the longest one may still be a couple thousandths short of actual chamber headspace to the shoulder. You'll need to measure it with a gage of some sort.

    If your bolt face isn't square to the chamber axis, the fired case heads may not be square which can change the readings a thousandth of an inch or more.
     
  4. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    What Kirby told me to do is to put the fired case back into the chamber and slowly and gently close the bolt. It should not bind. If it binds then put the case into the die and size it a little. Put it back into the chamber and if it binds then crank the die down just a little more. Keep doing this until your bolt closes without binding. You then have 0.001 or 0.002 clearance on the shoulder.

    From the above I would take what Bart B says and get the longest shouldered case and lub up the bolt lugs so they were smooth and then put that case in and check how the bolt closes. I would take a few of the shorter ones and try them. If none of them cause extra bolt effort then I would go with Bart B that all of your brass has "sprung back'. You are then left with the question of how much.

    The other question would seem to be whether you are headspacing on the shoulder or the belt?
     
  5. duckinalaska

    duckinalaska Well-Known Member

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    Mr Jim,
    BB is on it. Go ahead and chamber some of the fired cases. If they are too snug, then they need to be backed down .002 until they feel smooth. You'll be good to go if your primer pockets are still tight.
    Brandon
     
  6. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    buffalobob,

    Doesn't one always end up headspacing on the shoulder, sooner or later. I've never really ever figured out the belt thing. With the belted cases I do as you have stated thus always end up headspacing on the shoulder. I end up discarding the cases when the ring ahead of the belt becomes the problem as evidenced by difficult bolt closure and chamber marks just ahead of the belt. (I'm too tight to get one of those collet resizer dies.)
     
  7. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    I don't know for sure what is Jimm is doing With new brass or full lenght resized brass you would most likely be head spacing on the belt. What Clay Spencer told me when he rebuilt my 240 was to full length resize and headspace on the belt and that would give great accuracy and keep me out of trouble (amazing how a guy can look at your gun and tell that you are prone to get yourself into trouble).

    It is possible to expand the belt outwards and well as upwards. Like you, I am too lazy to get a belt squeezer.
     
  8. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Thanks guys for the input .

    After reading all that has been suggested here I put them to work ................but ! not until I measured a larger sample of cases . Glad I did that as the 100 case sampling changed the percentages a bit , ok , a lot . A great case in point for large sample numbers as the math whizzes insist upon .

    The cases that are .005 longer than min sammi spec are in the minority ( 10% ? ) . The largest number of cases ( haven't put a calculator to this to get exact percentage , but roughly is 80% ) measure .006 to .0065 longer with the last group going .007 to .00725 ( 10% ?)( these numbers past the thou mark are approximations of the figures indicated by my dial caliper which is only gradated to the thou. Thinking about this a bit cause me to realize that those percentages are probably a close approximation of the ladder test loads by charge weight . That is to say 10% at he low pressure end , 80 % in the middle normal working pressure loads and 10% at the high pressure end .

    After the long winded session of measuring several points on the cases I have this info to share .

    new lapua cases......... belt .529 all
    forward of belt......... .508 to .509
    Extractor groove ....... .451 to .452
    shoulder body junction.. .488


    4 fired cases .005 longer than min.
    belt...................... .532 to .533
    forward of belt ....... .513 to .514
    extractor groove ....... .453 to .455
    shoulder body junction . .490 , all


    4 fired cases .006 longer
    belt .................... .532 to .533
    forward of belt ....... .513 to .514
    extractor groove ....... .453 to .456 ( one case at .456)
    shoulder body junction. .490


    4 fired cases .007 longer
    belt .................... .533 to .534
    forward of belt ....... .514 to .515
    extractor groove ....... .455 to .457
    shoulder body junction. .490 all

    Moving on to the " close the bolt on a fired case " test results were as following:

    .005 longer...... almost no difference from the closing without a case in the chamber .

    .006 longer...... noticeable difference from the .005 cases but not any big diff, just enough to notice .

    .007 longer...... big diff even from .006 cases , very big increase in effort , also uneven spots in closure , kinda draggy rough .

    At this point I am thinking that .oo6 longer is very close to chamber actual . Thinking that actual may be right at .0065.

    I suppose a Cerrosafe cast would answer this more definitively , but I am a bit apprehensive about a procedure that use molten metal in my LSR hammer . Just occurred to me to do a trial on one of my takeoff bbls .That would be fun and no tension involved .

    Jim B.
     
  9. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    While climbing around on a center sprinkler pivot got to thinkin about your above data.

    The thought crossed the old mind, I do some of my worst thinkin' while swinging a pipe wrench /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

    What about bolt thrust? I was thinkin' that the only way for some fired cases to be way longer than others was for the chamber to have lengthened somewhat w/the higher pressure loads.

    I have no idea of what I'm talking about but it was fun to at least be thinking of something for a change /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  10. larrywillis

    larrywillis Well-Known Member

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    Jimm,
    Read the first few pages of my website (below), and I'll bet you get a good idea why you're having so much variation in case sizes. You'll also find the solution there.

    - Innovative
     
  11. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Roy ,

    You have a penchant for putting your finger in the middle of the pie .

    Probably so you can eat the rest of it ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

    you reckon bolt thrust can account for 5 ten thousandths ?

    Jim B.


    p.s. Chris Matthews , please chime in on this ...............we are dumb and need the light ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Jim B.
     
  12. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Dan Lilja


    [ QUOTE ]
    Or more simply put, the area in shear for all lugs is multiplied times the shear modulus, and this number is divided into the thrust. Often the resulting number will be in the .001"-.002" range. This explains why it becomes necessary to bump the shoulders of brass cases back after a few reloadings. New brass is elastic enough that it will return to its original shape, but with progressive loadings the brass becomes more plastic until it does not return to its original form at all. Cases become sticky, bolt lift more difficult and eventually the cases have to be replaced. With very high pressure loads this can happen on the first firing.



    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  13. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Some good advice has been given. I would only add this:

    Some brass in the same lot can have different grain structures and slightly different alloys or percentages. Add to that the fact that not all ammo has the same pressures associated with it by factors such as temperature, load development, case capacities and such means that the brass gets abused worse sometimes-even with the same load. This is the reason why some go in easy, and some need to be FL sized already. I would take the ones that just barely let your bolt close easily without galling your lugs and make all the others as close to the same size as those possible. To to this, the Redding indicator works great but so does the Stoney point tools. They make the headspace gauges and bullet comparators on seperate tools that are affixed to your caliper which frees up your press for other things.

    For instance, when I have to "bump back" my brass that I normally just Neck size, I can set up my Stoney POint tool on my caliper and set up my FL die on my press. Then it is size, then measure. IF the die needs to be threaded further down to get more bump, then I can do it quickly without having to thread an indicator on then off then on again. Make sense?

    Anyhow, I think you're on the right track here.
     
  14. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Goodgrouper,

    Thanks for the info,factoring in the brass differences is something I had not done .

    I like the Redding tool but you pointed out a problem with using it that I don't like ...it ties up the press ! You just about have to have separate press to use it easily .....now where did I put that Midway catalog /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    BB thanks for the bolt thrust info , that is a lot of push!

    As always you guys are tops ,
    Jim B.