Wrong. Bad advice.
Rangefinder need....as opposed to want...
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Wrong. Bad advice.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
The 1600 gives me the angle to target, temp and Baro in psi. In your training you have to ask yourself, is the target at the exact range they state because your truing all your ballistic data to that said range, even a couple yards here or there will cause you havoc later on. Look at your long range rifle as a system of which your range finder is an integral part, your system will be more accurate when trued to the same tools you'll use in the field.
You want to be 100% confident that you can take the range from or LRF, put it into your ballistic app, dial it on your optic and send that round!!
You will be surprised how fast you'll pass up 500 yards, trust my don't buy 500 yard equipment and think you'll stop there
Barrelnut
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrelnut View Post
Really? OP states an (eventual) max of 500 yards. I own a 1600B and consider it overkill for those ranges. Of course if an eventual goal of 1200 yards is in the cards, then things change, but you never need to buy way more than you need. Those saved funds would be best used for better scope optics. Just my opinion.
Wrong. Bad advice.
Drilldog,
I don't consider it bad advice at all. Would it make you feel better if I said it is my opinion? Then my opinion it is. But believe me it is FAR from wrong OR bad advice. I consider you not very educated in rangefinders if you consider it wrong advice. I own a 1600B and use it a lot. Not everyone has the funds for one. And I stand by my statement that other less expensive rangefinders will work very well in the OP described parameters.
Originally Posted by Barrelnut View Post
Really? OP states an (eventual) max of 500 yards. I own a 1600B and consider it overkill for those ranges. Of course if an eventual goal of 1200 yards is in the cards, then things change, but you never need to buy way more than you need. Those saved funds would be best used for better scope optics. Just my opinion.
Wrong. Bad advice.
Drilldog,
I don't consider it bad advice at all. Would it make you feel better if I said it is my opinion? Then my opinion it is. But believe me it is FAR from wrong OR bad advice. I consider you not very educated in rangefinders if you consider it wrong advice. I own a 1600B and use it a lot. Not everyone has the funds for one. And I stand by my statement that other less expensive rangefinders will work very well in the OP described parameters.
If you can afford the Leica 1600, get it, you won't regret it. If you can't afford it, then get what you can get. That simple. An extra $150-$200 saved isn't much money in today's market, might as well have the best.
I bit the bullet and bought the Leica 1600 when they first came out and have never looked back. It is everything I will ever need and then some.
Most people don't understand how to fully and effectively use the long distance rangefinders. You can buy a rangefinder that will work just good enough for the yardages you plan to shoot, but you lose many other advantages that an "overpowered" rangefinder will provide.
With the 1600 I can range hillsides at up to 2000 yards in the right lighting conditions. So for example, I spot a nice buck running a doe on a hillside at 1500 yards. The next thing I need to do is figure out how to get into shooting position and be within my rifles capabilities. So lets say for this example that limit is 500 yards. I can now start ranging positions that are over 1000 yards away so I know exactly where to go knowing I will be within my shooting range. So say I Find a nice Ridge reading 1100 yards that is downwind from the buck, I know exactly where I need to get to and I can start hauling butt to that spot in hopes of making a 400 yard shot. I can even have my scope dialed in or be going over the hold over point on my reticle long before I arrive to minimize an adjustment mistake. The yardage the deer is actually at when I get there may be a little different, but I know that I should be within my capabilities.
You can't do all that with a 1000 yard rangefinder. Well you could, but you will be limited to the lesser effective range.
With the 1600, if longer shooting capabilities are developed or if you already have a longer range shooting ability and you start hunting in an area where longer shot opportunities arise, you already have the proper piece of equipment.
I bit the bullet and bought the Leica 1600 when they first came out and have never looked back. It is everything I will ever need and then some.
Most people don't understand how to fully and effectively use the long distance rangefinders. You can buy a rangefinder that will work just good enough for the yardages you plan to shoot, but you lose many other advantages that an "overpowered" rangefinder will provide.
With the 1600 I can range hillsides at up to 2000 yards in the right lighting conditions. So for example, I spot a nice buck running a doe on a hillside at 1500 yards. The next thing I need to do is figure out how to get into shooting position and be within my rifles capabilities. So lets say for this example that limit is 500 yards. I can now start ranging positions that are over 1000 yards away so I know exactly where to go knowing I will be within my shooting range. So say I Find a nice Ridge reading 1100 yards that is downwind from the buck, I know exactly where I need to get to and I can start hauling butt to that spot in hopes of making a 400 yard shot. I can even have my scope dialed in or be going over the hold over point on my reticle long before I arrive to minimize an adjustment mistake. The yardage the deer is actually at when I get there may be a little different, but I know that I should be within my capabilities.
You can't do all that with a 1000 yard rangefinder. Well you could, but you will be limited to the lesser effective range.
With the 1600, if longer shooting capabilities are developed or if you already have a longer range shooting ability and you start hunting in an area where longer shot opportunities arise, you already have the proper piece of equipment.
The 1600/B is the simply the best bang for your money investment.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
Strong opinions. All good opinions.
I've limited myself to ~500-600yds for groundhogs and used the 1K Leica for a long time. With it, I could range GHs on sunny days to ~650yds. Worked good for me.
I stepped up a few years ago to a geovid for binocular ranging, and while it's huge & heavy I'm happy here as well(easier spotting).
I like all the Leicas
I agree with Barrelnut.
While you're limiting to 500, you can spend money on a better scope, better trigger, reloading components, etc.
And there is just no tellin what the best deal in laser ranging will be by the time you've worked your way further. You could get a 1600 then -dirt cheap, while everyone else is chasing 'the best deal'.
It's when you get further out that air density differences, coriolis, slope, and spin-drift, need to be accounted for. I have equipment to do it, and started off shooting further out. But 'Hunting' was not as enjoyable with this once the novelty wore off.
By limiting myself beneath all this, and adding a few rules to the game, I feel like I've stepped up my game.
I'm actually hunting instead of just shooting.
I've limited myself to ~500-600yds for groundhogs and used the 1K Leica for a long time. With it, I could range GHs on sunny days to ~650yds. Worked good for me.
I stepped up a few years ago to a geovid for binocular ranging, and while it's huge & heavy I'm happy here as well(easier spotting).
I like all the Leicas
I agree with Barrelnut.
While you're limiting to 500, you can spend money on a better scope, better trigger, reloading components, etc.
And there is just no tellin what the best deal in laser ranging will be by the time you've worked your way further. You could get a 1600 then -dirt cheap, while everyone else is chasing 'the best deal'.
It's when you get further out that air density differences, coriolis, slope, and spin-drift, need to be accounted for. I have equipment to do it, and started off shooting further out. But 'Hunting' was not as enjoyable with this once the novelty wore off.
By limiting myself beneath all this, and adding a few rules to the game, I feel like I've stepped up my game.
I'm actually hunting instead of just shooting.
davkrat
Well-Known Member
Another major component of my range limits as well.
7magcreedmoor
Well-Known Member
I have the 1600CRF and find it to be very practical. Advertised as a 1600 yard device, I have gotten good reflections on livestock that far out, and rocks, cliffsides, and buildings to 1977 so far. The key to getting good readings with any rangefinder is the same as hitting with your rifle: solid stable support for the tool. You intend shooting at fairly modest range (for now) but also mention the atmospheric variables. I don't get many long shot opportunities where I hunt in PA, but still like to be prepared. I have taped some "cheat-sheet" info right onto my CRF, where it will never get lost, unless the lanyard breaks. When I range a potential target, the dope adjustments for temp/alt/angle are all right there in my hand. I know a G7 BR2 would be more precise, but like you, I have budget limitations at the present time and must use what I can afford, and prefer to spend the available money on the rifle itself. I don't use the "holdover" feature of the Leica, but have my custom drop dope on my turret for the effective range I intend to hunt.
Attachments
These are all well thought out remarks. I noted someone had 1600b's for 650 on the board last week, but I was not checking and just missed out. Pity, I wonder how often deals like this come along?
My scope is setup with a custom turret. Setup to match Leica's baseline, I should be able to hit with the 1600b, then take the EHR it spits out and dial that exactly on my turret and be dead on. I say should, the devil is in the details...but that appeals to me as it is taking into account changes in temp and elevation and makes the whole process simple.
But again, at 500 yards, the adjustment it will have to make for temp and pressure amounts to 1.5-3 inches. As one poster mentioned, I could just mentally note to add 1 -3 clicks depending on the conditions...something I would verify before hunting.
On the other hand, that extra distance is useful in ways others have mentioned, as far as planning a stalk etc. Plus, the extra headroom is always good, as far as ranging ability.
Still on the fence. The difference between the two, unless I could find another deal like the one that was posted on here, is about 200 bucks. That is significant to me, considering the other things I need to get together to make hunts start working for us.
What I find interesting, and also daunting, is it seems there is no general consensus on the issue.
BTW, I looked at the Zeiss yesterday.... I prefer the Leica personally. I liked the Zeiss, but I thought the reticle was larger than I would like for long distance. I do like it's size in for holding still...it was easier...and the range on release is a good idea!
My scope is setup with a custom turret. Setup to match Leica's baseline, I should be able to hit with the 1600b, then take the EHR it spits out and dial that exactly on my turret and be dead on. I say should, the devil is in the details...but that appeals to me as it is taking into account changes in temp and elevation and makes the whole process simple.
But again, at 500 yards, the adjustment it will have to make for temp and pressure amounts to 1.5-3 inches. As one poster mentioned, I could just mentally note to add 1 -3 clicks depending on the conditions...something I would verify before hunting.
On the other hand, that extra distance is useful in ways others have mentioned, as far as planning a stalk etc. Plus, the extra headroom is always good, as far as ranging ability.
Still on the fence. The difference between the two, unless I could find another deal like the one that was posted on here, is about 200 bucks. That is significant to me, considering the other things I need to get together to make hunts start working for us.
What I find interesting, and also daunting, is it seems there is no general consensus on the issue.
BTW, I looked at the Zeiss yesterday.... I prefer the Leica personally. I liked the Zeiss, but I thought the reticle was larger than I would like for long distance. I do like it's size in for holding still...it was easier...and the range on release is a good idea!
FearNoWind
Well-Known Member
Just be aware that when you get beyond 600 yards the ability to read wind (not an exact science) becomes exponentially more critical. Don't allow yourself to get frustrated if things don't go as well as you'd like beyond 600 yards.
This is an excellent point. I have no experience reading wind at all. Consequently, I am looking into two different instructors who regularly train shooters for that distance. One of them was recommended to me by Mark Pharr, so he is top of my list at the moment.
Wind is voodoo to me right now, it's also one reason why I figure I'll never hunt beyond 500 yards. But it's definitely something I need to learn about, but that's going to cost money to make happen...both in terms of training, and reloading components etc....which is another reason why I am so tempted to pinch pennies on the RF! I want myself and my sons to get appropriate training so we can take advantage of hard earned opportunities to hunt.
Of course, there is such a thing as being penny wise and pound foolish, and that could apply both directions in my case...
FearNoWind
Well-Known Member
And if your instructor is worth his salt he'll tell you that it's voodoo (or nearly so) to him also.
No matter what you learn about reading the wind, the best you'll ever do is establish a solution based on averages of all conditions and then, as soon as you apply your solution, the wind will have changed. Wind reading is both fascinating and frustrating. I love it - even when it defeats me.
7magcreedmoor
Well-Known Member
If you can make out the cheats I have on the narrow side of the rangefinder in the photo in my other reply, you will see that with that rifle's load it takes a rather large change in either altitude, or in temperature to require a correction of 0.5 MOA, or one click on my elevation turret (Vortex Viper HSLR) at 600 yards. At 500 or less, I could try to adjust by holding higher or lower with the reticle (it has a center opening of (stretching my memory here) 0.45 MOA, but not compensating isn't likely to cause a miss at such a distance.
Yeah, I noted the same thing, I ran the numbers for my loads in Pointblank...mixed and matched from sealevel to 8000ft, temperatures from 90 to 20. I could manipulate it to get a 7 inch POI change, but that was by making it 20 degrees at sealevel and then going to 90 degrees at 8000 feet.
The current turret I have assumes 2500 feet and 50 degrees... a kind of middle ground. When I use these numbers, the biggest change I get is +- about 4 inches. But for that to happen, I had to set the numbers at 90 degrees and 8000 feet, I don't think that probably happens too much, but maybe I am wrong. More likely, (say 20 degrees outside and 8000 feet), the difference was about 2 inches. At sealevel and 20 degrees outside, it was a difference in the opposite direction of 3.5 inches at 500.
The reason this works is because my turret is cut in the median range for altitude and temperature. If I got the 1600b, I would have a new turret cut at Leica's standard conditions, so when EHR was spit out, I would be dead on, pretty much.
Where I will hunt most of the time here in Texas, temps will range from 20 degrees to 100 degrees, depending on the time of year. Elevation, usually around 500 feet, but there are some places out West I am looking at for Aoudad that may go much higher, just not sure how how at this point. However, my hope is to eventually go into New Mexico, Colorado for Mulies and Elk. Obviously, conditions there change.
Still, if I know ahead of time that average elevation is going to be 8k and average temps in the 30's, lets say, I can just mentally remind myself to subtract a click at 400 and two at 500, I suppose. That is a possibility.
Funny thing is, as I wring my hands over the 200 dollar difference between the CRF 1000R and the 1600b, I just spent about $100 today applying for every possible youth hunt I could find for my sons, and a couple for me as well. But that's what it's all about in the end. One thing is for sure, if we get picked for any of these hunts, we need that rangefinder before we go. These will be places I have never seen before, so it will be crucial if we are to have any chance at all.
The current turret I have assumes 2500 feet and 50 degrees... a kind of middle ground. When I use these numbers, the biggest change I get is +- about 4 inches. But for that to happen, I had to set the numbers at 90 degrees and 8000 feet, I don't think that probably happens too much, but maybe I am wrong. More likely, (say 20 degrees outside and 8000 feet), the difference was about 2 inches. At sealevel and 20 degrees outside, it was a difference in the opposite direction of 3.5 inches at 500.
The reason this works is because my turret is cut in the median range for altitude and temperature. If I got the 1600b, I would have a new turret cut at Leica's standard conditions, so when EHR was spit out, I would be dead on, pretty much.
Where I will hunt most of the time here in Texas, temps will range from 20 degrees to 100 degrees, depending on the time of year. Elevation, usually around 500 feet, but there are some places out West I am looking at for Aoudad that may go much higher, just not sure how how at this point. However, my hope is to eventually go into New Mexico, Colorado for Mulies and Elk. Obviously, conditions there change.
Still, if I know ahead of time that average elevation is going to be 8k and average temps in the 30's, lets say, I can just mentally remind myself to subtract a click at 400 and two at 500, I suppose. That is a possibility.
Funny thing is, as I wring my hands over the 200 dollar difference between the CRF 1000R and the 1600b, I just spent about $100 today applying for every possible youth hunt I could find for my sons, and a couple for me as well. But that's what it's all about in the end. One thing is for sure, if we get picked for any of these hunts, we need that rangefinder before we go. These will be places I have never seen before, so it will be crucial if we are to have any chance at all.
