Norma 217

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by royinidaho, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    I've read posts here that say N 217 is way slow. Much slower than H-1000.

    I've done some researching (web crawling) and have come to the conclusion, from from LRH posts, that Norma 217 has a burn rate similar to H50BMG.

    Also came across that there is/was a recall on the "current" lot of Norma 217.

    Any thoughts???
     
  2. milo-2

    milo-2 Well-Known Member

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    I emailed a guy at Norma, was told it was faster than the old MRP2. So it it's faster than H1000.

    In my experience, with a 7mm saum, it pressured up at about the same rate or slower than H1000, so here that first statement doesn't mesh.

    It's worked around here in overbores, 6.5 WSM, kind of wanted to see it in a 300 Norma mag.

    As for recall, that was the first batch in country, fall of 2012, 3-4 lots ago, I haven't heard any fresh rumors.

    Hope I helped:)
     

  3. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Thanks!
     
  4. branwill25

    branwill25 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Roy, I don't know if you know this but Powder Valley has 217 in stock. They have MRP as well. See ya

    Brandon
     
  5. paul105

    paul105 Member

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    New member here.

    I contacted Western Powder and got load data for N-217 in the 30-378. It was a copy of info from the latest Norma loading manual. Min and Max loads were the same for both 165gr (113.5gr N217) and 180gr (110gr N217) bullets.

    Western Powder didn't know why only one load was listed for N217 and wouldn't make a recommendation RE lower start load.

    Would appreciate any thoughts or direction to a different data source.

    Thanks,

    Paul
     
  6. paul105

    paul105 Member

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    Quick update:

    I emailed Norma USA RE Norma 217 "same" Min Max powder charge -- their response:

    [FONT=&quot]Hi Paul[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Yes we have same loads. if we go down on powder what is normal, barrel time be longer and pressure went up.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]So it is for safety. Don’t load different than manual is saying. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

    I have some Norma 217 arriving tomorrow -- we'll see -- got my full face shield -- LOL.

    Paul
     
  7. idaho elk hunter

    idaho elk hunter Well-Known Member

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    I have not been able to get my hands on some but have been told that it is the same as the old MRP-2 and the direct replacement as RL 25 but temp stable. I pray this is true! Please some one respond with their experience!
     
  8. paul105

    paul105 Member

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    Update.

    First outing with Mountain Rifles Inc., custom lightweight 30-378, 26" barrel -- The rifle weighs 7 Lbs 11 oz with 4.5 - 14x Zeiss in Talley rings and bases.

    Weatherby cases and Fed 215 Primers.

    Only shot one round of each load -- 60 Deg F and chrono halfway to 25 yd target.


    180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,122fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

    180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.





    168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 116.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,308fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

    168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 113.5gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.

    Norma 217 isn't the same burn rate as H50BMG and from Norma's data it is slower than MRP2.

    The muzzle brake is incredibly effective and the stock design fits me perfectly. Most comfortable 30 magnum I've ever shot. To my surprise I didn't notice any concussion usually associated with lots of powder and muzzle breaks. Additionally, the noise level wasn't any worse than anything else I shoot (ear plugs only). Of course my hearing isn't all that great anyway.

    [​IMG]

    FWIW,

    Paul
     
  9. paul105

    paul105 Member

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    For those interested in Norma 217.



    Recap – Some redundant info (i.e. posted above).

    30-378 Weatherby Mag – Mountain Rifles Inc. Custom Lightweight – 26” Barrel

    Yes, I know one shot chronograph results are suspect.

    NOTE: LOAD DATA FOR INFO ONLY – NOT A RECOMMENDATION!

    I contacted Western Powder and got load data for Norma 217 in the 30-378. It was a copy of info from the latest Norma loading manual. Min and Max loads were the same for both 165gr (113.5gr N217) and 180gr (110gr N217) bullets.

    Western Powder didn't know why only one load was listed for Norma 217 and wouldn't make a recommendation RE lower start load.


    I emailed Norma USA RE Norma 217 "same" Min Max powder charge -- their response:

    [FONT=&quot]“Hi Paul[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Yes we have same loads. if we go down on powder what is normal, barrel time be longer and pressure went up.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]So it is for safety. Don’t load different than manual is saying.”[/FONT]


    First outing with Mountain Rifles Inc., custom lightweight 30-378, 26" barrel -- The rifle weighs 7 Lbs 11 oz with 4.5 - 14x Zeiss in Talley rings and bases.

    Weatherby cases and Fed 215 Primers.

    Only shot one round of each load -- 60 Deg F and chrono halfway to 25 yd target.


    180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,122fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

    180gr Nosler partition -- 110.0gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.


    168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 116.0gr of H50BMG -- 3,308fps over the chrono -- recoil was moderate and bolt lift/extraction was normal.

    168gr Barnes Tipped TSX -- 113.5gr of Norma 217 -- failed to register on the chrono -- recoil was noticeably heavier than the 50BMG load -- bolt lift sticky and ejector cut mark on case head. Bolt lift was sticky for about the width of the ejector cut and was normal for balance of bolt lift and extraction was normal.

    While waiting for a response to an email to Norma explaining my results and asking them if (under these circumstances) can the powder charge be reduced and if so, how much, I shot the following (one round only).


    180gr Nosler Partition, Norma 1x cases, Fed 215, Chrono @20’:

    5-16-2014 (60 Deg F)
    110.0gr 50BMG, 3,122 fps

    110.0gr Norma 217, did not register fps

    5-18-2014 (45 Deg F)
    112.0gr 50BMG, 3,182 fps
    113.0gr 50BMG, 3,189 fps
    114.0gr 50BMG, 3,236 fps


    168gr Barnes Tipped TSX, Norma 1x cases, Fed 215, Chrono @20’:

    5-16-2014 (60 Deg F)
    116.0gr 50BMG, 3,308 fps
    113.5gr Norma 217, did not register fps

    5-18-2014 (45 Deg F)
    117.0gr 50BMG, 3,350 fps
    118.0gr 50BMG, 3,392fps
    119.0gr 50BMG, 3,427 fps

    Did not shoot Norma 217

    Received following email from Norma:

    [FONT=&quot]“You can reduce powder not more than 3 grain, but how long is free bore with bullet? You need at least 3mm or more. How strong is bullet sitting in.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Is barrel clean? How is velocity. Check this thing.”[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Note: Per Norma email, I checked -- Freebore .361 - .400 best I can tell (Wtby lists .361” freebore for 30-378). Barrel is very clean. Bullet slips freely in and out of fired case neck[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
    Reduced Norma 217 load 2 grains (misread email thought it said max redux 2 gr).

    5-23-2014 (70 Deg F)
    111.5gr Norma 217, 3,609 fps avg (2 Shots 3,584, 3,603)


    120.0gr 50BMG, 3,427 fps (chrono, or ES overlap?)
    121.0gr 50BMG, 3,427 fps (chrono, or ES overlap?)


    5-24-2014 (60 Deg F)
    111.5gr Norma 217, 3,619 fps avg (3 shots 3,603, 3632, 3,603)

    Bolt lift – slight resistance midway thru upstroke. Reduce to 110.5 gr and try again.


    121.0gr 50BMG, 3,475 fps avg (4 shots 3,490(2), 3454, 3,472)

    NOTE: LOAD DATA FOR INFO ONLY – NOT A RECOMMENDATION!


    Burn Rate Chart Including Norma 217 faster than Retumbo and H1000 (roughly same as RL25 and IMR7828SC)

    LHS-Germany GmbH: *Comparison Charts

    Point of comparison - member on 24hourcampfire ran Quickload data for 168gr TTSX and Norma 217 in 30-378 w/26" bbl.

    [FONT=&quot]-02.0 99 107.80gr 3,284fps Near Maximum !
    +00.0 101 110.00gr 3,350fps Near Maximum !
    +02.0 103 112.20gr 3,415fps DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +04.0 105 114.40gr 3,479fps DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    [/FONT]
    FWIW,


    Paul
     
  10. paul105

    paul105 Member

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    Just wanted to update this post. It shows how different guns are. Norma ballistics tech, Quickload, and actual shooting experience. Here is a chronology of events:

    I contacted Norma on several occasions – this is the result.

    Update and Recap on .30-378 Weatherby Magnum

    Weatherby specs list freebore is .361” for the .30-378 Wtby Mag. Best I can tell freebore on the rifle I have is at least .361 and maybe a bit more.

    Rifle is clean.

    Fired cases allow bullet to slide in and out freely (necks not too thick).

    Barrel Length: 26”
    Action: Dakota 97

    Loaded with Norma 217 (Lot Number 0603 135067)
    1x factory fired Weatherby cases
    Federal 215 magnum primers
    168gr Barnes Tipped TSX
    Seated at 3.645” OAL

    Chronograh set 20’ (about 6 meters) from muzzle.

    Per Norma’s instructions, I started with one round at 113.5gr as listed in manual for 165gr oryx – sticky bolt uplift (for about the width of the extractor cut), extractor cut mark on case head, extraction normal and velocity didn’t register on chronograph. Temp – 65-70 Deg F

    After email from Norma (saying drop charge no more than 3 grains) I tried 111.5gr – velocity average 3,609 fps at 70 Deg F. Bolt lift not completely normal with resistance on initial uplift and some resistance midway thru bolt uplift (each case was a bit different) – extractor cut marks on several case heads, and extraction was normal.

    Dropped charge to 110.5gr – velocity 3,567 fps. Bolt lift and case head marks less noticeable than 111.5gr but still evident to some degree. Temp 65 Deg F

    Dropped charge to 109.5gr – velocity 3,520 fps. Bolt lift normal, case head normal. Temp 60 Deg F.

    It looks like I should stop at 109.5gr – does this sound reasonable and 3,520 fps.

    Tried the 109.5gr load again – again, initial bolt lift still balking slightly and extractor cut marks on case head.

    Went down to 108.5gr – chrono gave 3,463 fps and bolt lift was totally normal, although several cases showed slight ejector cut marks. Used two chronos one behind the other. Shot 3 at 200 yards and got a 2” group – vertical dispersion was ¾” – wind was fairly strong and swirling which may account for horiz spread (which I can live with even if not wind related).]

    I finally feel comfortable with this load and will load 20 to verify.

    To put this into perspective – 118.0gr of H50BMG at 3,380 w/168gr TTSX is max in this gun (as much as 123.0gr is listed as max in various reliable sources).
    ..

    The following is from a poster on the 24hourcampfire -- Quickload data

    http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8925950#Post8925950


    Code:
    Cartridge          : .30-378 Weath. Mag.
    Bullet             : .308, 168, Barnes 'TTSX'BT 30878
    Useable Case Capaci: 120.538 grain H2O = 7.826 cm³
    Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.655 inch = 92.84 mm
    Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
    Powder             : Norma 217
    
    Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
    incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
    CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
    
    Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
     %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms
    
    -20.0   80    88.00   2664    2648   30235  12799     94.9    1.693
    -18.0   82    90.20   2734    2789   32422  13177     96.1    1.652
    -16.0   84    92.40   2804    2934   34785  13528     97.2    1.613
    -14.0   86    94.60   2874    3082   37301  13847     98.1    1.574
    -12.0   88    96.80   2944    3233   39963  14133     98.9    1.535
    -10.0   90    99.00   3013    3387   42794  14382     99.4    1.498
    -08.0   92   101.20   3082    3544   45817  14593     99.8    1.455
    -06.0   94   103.40   3150    3702   49046  14763    100.0    1.409
    -04.0   97   105.60   3218    3863   52495  14896    100.0    1.364
    -02.0   99   107.80   3284    4024   56180  15020    100.0    1.322  ! Near Maximum !
    +00.0  101   110.00   3350    4187   60119  15140    100.0    1.280  ! Near Maximum !
    +02.0  103   112.20   3415    4350   64329  15256    100.0    1.240  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +04.0  105   114.40   3479    4516   68834  15367    100.0    1.202  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +06.0  107   116.60   3543    4682   73657  15473    100.0    1.165  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +08.0  109   118.80   3606    4851   78824  15574    100.0    1.130  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    +10.0  111   121.00   3669    5021   84365  15670    100.0    1.095  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    
    Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
    Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    +Ba    101   110.00   3496    4559   73916  14586    100.0    1.168  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
    Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
    -Ba    101   110.00   3126    3646   46492  15592     98.3    1.433
         
    
    
      Regards,
       
      Paul