LRH stewardship, thoughts and some decisions

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dave King, Mar 13, 2004.

  1. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,362
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    It's been several years now that Long Range Hunting has been in existance and for this I am greatful. This is a site where somewhat like minded folks can come and discuss hunting and "pushing the envelope" on range a bit.

    As many of you know we are under close scrutiny from within the hunting community and certainly from those on the outside of the hunting "sport(s)". I and others have long been aware of this scrutiny and take into consideration our public presentation and consider the views of others as a natural part of discussion and public appearance. Stewardship is a burden we must accept, it is part of society.


    With the restructuring of the LRH site I elected to omit the Ultra Long Range Hunting section, there are several reasons for this;

    First is that there have been very few threads there in a long while that have directly pertained to ULR methods.

    Secondly, although the PBfLR video series shows folks and methods that are a part of the LRH society it does not reflect well on the community as a whole IMHO. The last in the series of three (3) being the greater problem for me personally. Far too many rounds fired onto one critter for me to consider it depicting "hunting". This method is by me more thought of as Ultra Long Range Hunting

    Thirdly,... and I could go on but I wont.

    Point is... Someone needs to stand up and say "I'll take responsibilty for my sport and try to foster support and correctness." I call it stewardship, we must be stewards of this sport and draw a line stating "This is too far afield for me to accept as "good" for the group as a whole."

    I know there are others that feel the same as I do and I know there are those that will disagree. I have made a stand and stated my opinion.

    Thoughts?

    Edited for spelling.

    [ 03-13-2004: Message edited by: Dave King ]
     
  2. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    Sorry to hear you have decided to eleminate the Ultra Longrange section.

    I guess it's OK to everyone in the anti-hunting ranks to keep all shots "under" 700 or 800 yards?

    What is the acceptable yardage range that don't offend others and give our sport a bad name?

    Later
    DC [​IMG]
     

  3. John Burns

    John Burns Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    82
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    I have also given this topic a lot of thought as we show long range shots on our TV show (The Best of the West). We were concerned that we would get negative response from the hunting community and were prepared for some.

    I should define long range shots as shot from 400 yds – 800 yds. The furthest shot we have shown was a 742 yd elk and we have quite a few 500 yds – 600 yds shots. All are one shot kills. We are airing a predator hunting show that will have a coyote shot at 1078 but the shooter missed his first two shots but made a one shot kill on shot #3.

    We have received a lot of emails but the only negative has been from complete anti hunters. Everything else has been very positive and I think that is because we don’t try any shots we are not relatively sure we can make.

    I have seen a lot of shooters in field conditions and have never seen anyone who could reliably hit game, in the right place, at ranges over 800 yds with the first shot. I know it has been done many, many times in the past but just because you do it once or twice does not mean you can do it on demand.

    I have never seen the videos Dave refers to but I feel uncomfortable with the idea of multiple hits on an animal shown on video. One thing that is hard to understand is the different sense of time between watching a video “in cold blood” and actually being there . When we edit video we sometimes have to shorten the kill sequence because when your adrenaline is not flowing time goes much slower. This change in perception from real life to video is just one of many aspects a good editor allows for when building a TV show or video.

    The above is not a condemnation of anyone else’s video efforts, it's just the way we try and do our stuff. If we try and censor someone else’s efforts then we must accept another group will censor us because I know our show offends the anti hunter and probably some hunters.

    In the end I guess I am saying I don’t like people shooting at ranges they are not capable of properly hitting the game they are shooting at and I like the idea of showing it on video even less but I will defend their right to do it as long as it is legal.
     
  4. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,757
    Joined:
    May 7, 2001
    I somewhat agree with your thoughts on the longer yardage kills on animals if your trying for a first round out of the barrel shot.

    That's exactly why we take a spotter shot first (away from the animal and at the same range) to make all our final scope corrctions and then kill the animal on the "next" single shot.

    With the correct rifle, equipment and set-up, and with a good hunting partner, the animals can be killed with the "first" and only hit at a "lot further" then 800 yards.

    Some are able to do it with the 1st shot out of the barrel, as you mentioned.

    Later
    DC [​IMG]
     
  5. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,357
    Joined:
    May 2, 2001
    Actually, the decision to eliminate the Ultra forum (along with the Competition forum) was mine with Ian and Dave's agreement. I have no problem with that method of hunting being used competently and responsibly by others. I feel confident that Darryl and his small group of friends do it about as well as it can be done and I admire their skill. But it's not something I care to promote any longer on this site.

    From a purely selfish standpoint I have decided to "prune" some of the existing content of my site to hone in more closely on what interests yours truly. I have no personal interest in ever using the Ultra method of hunting. This is similar to the fact that I have no personal interest in hunting waterfowl.

    And, as it is, any true naysayers who poke their head into our site for a minute can go away with an inaccurate and biased view of how any of us here hunt long range. So if I don't have a personal interest in Ultra, why make it any easier for the naysayers to criticize the more mainstream style of the LRH sport or the content of the LRH site itself.

    Meanwhile, my point isn't to get into any discussion on LRH of what is an acceptable yardage and what isn't. In fact, that actually goes against the original stated purpose of LRH.com. I believe strongly in ethics, but I didn’t create this site for the purpose of discussing it. So please don’t discuss it here. That type of discussion just gets too emotional with no true closure. Kind of like trying to discuss politics and religion.

    By the way, this is really a small part of many other changes to the LRH site which will appear over the next month to mark the 3 year anniversary of www.LongRangeHunting.com in April.

    New software, content, structure, more promotion of stories, etc. Stay tuned.
     
  6. LRHA-Shooter

    LRHA-Shooter New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Good Afternoon!

    I have been a guest here for sometime now and never could figure out what the difference was between Ultra and Long Range. To me Long Range is a result of the shooters equipment, skills, and use of these items.

    My disappointment is that you droped compition from your forum, as that is my cup of tea.

    Thats my option, just like shooting custom single shot pistols is. Long Range to me is 600m paper targets with my .223 TC Contender.

    I guess my hole point is that how each of us conducts ourselves, both in the field and in public is very important, and reflects on all of us responsable firearm owners. It's a shame that we have to cloud our minds with public opions, but, if we don't, Long Range will mean something from our past.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    [ 03-15-2004: Message edited by: 338-378 ]
     
  8. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,357
    Joined:
    May 2, 2001
    Butch

    Thanks for your concern over the recent conflict on the LRH forum. As you know, over the past 35 months the amount of conflict has been very, very small compared to other sites. In fact, during that 35 months we would usually go about 6 months in between any conflicts. That low frequency changed recently, however. But the recent escalation is, I am sure, over. And it will stay that way...forever!

    Butch, in no way do I feel your video is the cause of any conflict here. Those conflicts were caused by people, not by videotapes.

    You, or any member, may at any time delete the text within a post of your own if you wish. Just click on the edit button. (pencil symbol). The post will remain but the text will be gone.

    I like your pun about "keen eyesight". [​IMG]
     
  9. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,537
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    There has been a few times I've been a pretty bad boy here, I know it and so does Len and anyone who has read it, I'm sorry for my attitude and combativeness at times, it won't continue. I should have, and will handle things differently.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    [ 03-15-2004: Message edited by: 338-378 ]
     
  11. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,307
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2003
    Good comments so far.

    My concern--how does the competition section lead to bad PR? Or was that section just cut because of lack of administrators interest?

    please advise [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. Tim Behle

    Tim Behle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    367
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2002
    At the risk of offending a few. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, here is mine.

    Len, Dave and Ian. I think you are doing a great job. You've made some tough decisions, but I think you are doing the right thing to keep this site focused on it's main objective of Long range hunting.

    Very few people in this world have the knowledge, equipment and ability to make a killing one shot hit on game past 1200 yards. Most folks shouldn't be attempting hits on game past 600 yards. In my opinion, if you haven't made a killing hit by the third shot, you aren't hunting, you are taking Hail Mary shots at an animal far beyond the distance you should be shooting. Having the Ultra long range forum, only encourages people new to LR hunting to try shots farther out than they have the ability to shoot.

    I have no qualms with anyone taking a long shot at any distance, as long as they have the ability to make the shot. But I don't think we should encourage people to shoot farther than they are able.

    As for competitions, those are all good to learn and practice shooting at long range. But realistically, they require two different types of rifles. A good 1000 yard benchrest rifle is a pain to hunt with, and a good LR hunting rifle isn't going to win many competitions. This site has lost several good LR hunters over the past year, because they got tired of getting beaten on by competition shooters. For long range hunting, it doesn't matter how tight you can shoot 10 shots, it only matters how accurately you can make that first shot.

    Just my thoughts, but I think the three administrators made the right decision to keep this site focused on it's primary goal, and to promote responsible hunting.
     
  13. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,410
    Joined:
    May 3, 2001
    Tim,
    A breath of fresh air. That is what this is really about - the one shot that we hope to make a clean kill with.
    To me, the bottom line is that this IS Len's site, even tho a couple of thousand guys have gravitated to it and get a lot of enjoyment here. He has the right to make whatever changes he sees fit. I do not believe that Len is an impulsive person, nor is he vindictive or out to push anyone in any direction. He has every right to modify his site as he sees fit. (I would like to see a little more on wardrobe failure and nipple-shields, but obviously that is not something Len is really into...)

    Looking at straight numbers, (uptake, participation, whatever you want to call it), aside from his degree of personal interest in long range hunting - those two topic areas were not getting used. That is a simple fact. The numbers where not there. Perhaps there are other topics that would generate more interest and serve (educate and entertain) more shooters that come here.

    I have never seen Len place any restrictions on shooting distance, not in our personal e-mails or on this site. As far as long range shooting competitions, they have their place and their websites, this is Long Range Hunting. There are some VERY serious guys out west who spend a lot of time and money shooting rocks as practice for long range hunting. I know a bunch of wildmen who spend most of their summer hauling steel plates around so that they can hear them hear-rendering clanging of bullets on steel. This is all practice for the sport of long range hunting, as is formal competition for some individuals. Whatever rings your gong...

    Last week I was honored to be asked to become an administrator here. That came out of the blue and I said yes, even tho I do not really understand what it means. Tell you the truth, Len and Dave still haven't told me what that entails as far as computer manipulation of the site or anything [​IMG] Maybe there is method in their madness...

    Anyhow, I believe these changes are for the better of the site as a whole, hope it works out that way.
     
  14. MAX

    MAX Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    263
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Arrrgh! ARRRRGH! Phooey. *#&&$(*@(@*&!**(*(@(#$*$&*$* Okay, I feel better now.

    Len, there is more to LRH than big game. This stuff doesn't even get interesting until 1000 yards is behind the bullet, I don't care what the target is. For whatever the reason these fellas bailed, this site will be less than it was for the loss. I always had the feeling that they forget more in a day than I'll learn in a life.

    So onward we go. I'm gonna hang on and hope it works. People I don't see here anymore include the gal from McMillan, Gordy Gritters, Jensen, S1, now Boyd and Darryl. Haven't seen WYO post recently though I may not have looked in all the right places. So it gets spirited at times; it's still mild compared to a few others I visit, and in the middle of it I've seen some damn fine technical discussion concerning technique and equipment. I know they can't be chained to the keyboard....

    I like this place, and would hate to see it evaporate.

    Dan