Top F-Class and benchrest gunsmiths in Europe do not use Lothar Walther if other barrels are available (or rather the time to wait for US parts is acceptable). Even in Germany Lothar Walther doesn't have the reputation to be the best. Many US manufacturers are regarded at least as high as LW or for example Krieger, Lilja or Bartlein usualy higher than LW. Trueflite and Bergara have been mentioned to be pretty good as well during in the last few months.
Lothar Walther vs Krieger barrels
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Looks like the topic is becoming a thing of national sentiments for some, time to leave!
@IdahoCTD, just to mention it, in Europe competition shooters, hunters and many rifle-producers often (mainly) use LW - barrels, and I have never heard that they were doing worse than their American counterparts ... Your rifle - competitions aren't automatically relevant for the rest of the world, even if they are called for world championships.
It has nothing to do with national sentiment. Benchrest shooters here in the US will use what wins no matter the cost. Many of them have multiple barrels chambered at once to find the most accurate on to compete with. Since LW barrels are readily available here now the excuses used in Europe about the US barrels isn't valid. LW barrels are cheaper but you might pay more to have them chambered, big deal. A couple hundred dollars difference in a barrel is childs play compared to what it cost to go to matches, pay for ammo, gas, etc. So if they were competitive with US made barrels they would get used. They barely show up in match results here.
No offense but hunters and rifle manufacturers don't typically hold the same accuracy standards as benchrest competitors. Many long rang hunters are picky and like the best they can get but they aren't really competing the same as a person shooting 1000yd benchrest. He asked if they were as accurate and lasted as long. Obviously they aren't as accurate here.
Go look at the equipment list in these match results and see what is winning.
International Benchrest Shooters
Choose Match Results Data
Montana NW 1000 Yard Benchrest Club
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
I've been around two Walter barrels, and stood in the back ground while a buddy tried to cut one on his Asian lathe. Was quite a struggle, but he got thru it. I ended up adjusting the spindle bearing pack and shimming backlash out of the cross slide. The barrel felt like generic 17ph4 re-arc melt stainless steel. The chips looked just like the stuff. I rang the barrel and the harmonics felt like 17ph4 or maybe 18-5. Not any form of NiChrome steel I've ever been around (has nasty harmonics). I begged for a piece of the barrel to take to the lab, but never got it. So I'm really only guessing.
Hardness has little if anything to how well a piece of steel will withstand heat. Actually some of the best are relatively soft (330 stainless and 349 stainless), but are a pain to cut at times. 17ph4 actually comes in more than one trade name. How much heat it will withstand; I just don't know for sure. I've put it in some seriously nasty situations with outstanding results. What I can say for sure is that it just doesn't want to rust, yet in the same situation 416 will rust up quickly. Wear is it's forte! The stuff appears to be abrasive resistant, and may actually harden as it wears. This is quite common with better grade of stainless steel, and makes you want to make deep heavy cuts at a slow surface speed. Yet you can get into trouble reaming a hole, and maybe removing .002" a side. Quite a learning curve, but not unmachineable like Hestalloy. The metal wants to be cut, and not pushed off the surface. Still I like diamond tooling.
gary
Hardness has little if anything to how well a piece of steel will withstand heat. Actually some of the best are relatively soft (330 stainless and 349 stainless), but are a pain to cut at times. 17ph4 actually comes in more than one trade name. How much heat it will withstand; I just don't know for sure. I've put it in some seriously nasty situations with outstanding results. What I can say for sure is that it just doesn't want to rust, yet in the same situation 416 will rust up quickly. Wear is it's forte! The stuff appears to be abrasive resistant, and may actually harden as it wears. This is quite common with better grade of stainless steel, and makes you want to make deep heavy cuts at a slow surface speed. Yet you can get into trouble reaming a hole, and maybe removing .002" a side. Quite a learning curve, but not unmachineable like Hestalloy. The metal wants to be cut, and not pushed off the surface. Still I like diamond tooling.
gary
shortgrass
Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting those links, IdahoCTD. I started to and the blew it off. Seems the only button rifled barrels in the equipment lists are Benchmark, Broughton and Hart, all others being cut rifled . No national pride in my coments, just what I see being used in these competitions and by dedicated hunters/shooters. The guys that compete will spend whatever necessary, no matter where it was made. If they thought LW would put them in the "rankings", they'd use them. LW might be fine for a hunting barrel, but the question was about accuracy, not what degree of accuracy, but accuracy. As for barrel life, to me barrels are the expendable part of the rifle. I don't seem to wear out stocks, triggers, scope mounts or actions,,, but I've worn out a few barrels. Shoot it 'till it's no longer satisfactory, then change it out. The many threads I see concerning "barrel life" I flatly ignor.
Varberger757
Well-Known Member
Extremist458
Well-Known Member
Hello Everyone. I happen to have just finished some R&D on the subject of barrel steels. As a Metallurgist I can offer some insight here, or start a new thread. Please let me know if it's something you all would like to read, and how detailed (ask me anything you like).
AJ
AJ
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Please expand on the use of different materials for barrels. Please
From a machinist view, some materials are much better than others to machine, therefore they have a better chance of being more accurate.
Rifling, contouring, chambering of the free machining steels is easier on tooling and the chance of better machine work is greater. I have messed with a few of the nontraditional barrel materials and
found them harder to make good precision cuts that had the finish desired for the chamber.
Everything became critical and some experimenting was necessary to get everything set just right.
(Spindle speed, tool location to the work, type of tools, feed rates, coolant, in order to keep the reamer cutting correctly and from damage/wear).
I personally don't see any advantage to using some of these materials just for a little more barrel life
and with the increase of difficulty of machining, the chance of rifling and bore tolerances not being as good as the materials that lend themselves to better machining quality, I will chose the material that will give me the best quality overall.
There is a happy medium that has to be reached between longevity and machinability. being harder does not make it better IMO.
I would chose the Krieger or other premium barrels made of standard barrel materials over the exotics any day and rely on the quality possibility.
just my opinion
J E CUSTOM
Extremist458
Well-Known Member
Well, I tend to be very long winded, so I'll try my best to be brief...right...
To start, let's address the topic of LW barrel steel.
LW50, the stainless, is their most common steel. They sell some 3 to 1 over CM (Chrome-Moly, i'll get that) in center-fire rifle barrels. Because of a few reasons.
LW-50 = 410 stainless.
Disclaimer: Alloy isn't everything. The quality and properties of each can very quite a bit. Grain refinement and how well the alloying elements are dispersed (precipitated within the iron matrix) or dissolved if you would. If a steel is cooled too slow they can form groups and carbides (like rocks in concrete) that can give an area of weakness. If cooled to fast, cracks can propagate and cause differential hardening, which stresses the steel, or simply too hard (too much detail to explain here).
What's that mean and why? The reason is complex, but not hard to understand. The most obvious is the .6% sulfur in 416. The sulfur is an issue; it can lump together in pockets or areas where it is richer then others. This makes it super easy to cut in one area, and a difficult in another. But more over, it burns...yes, imagine that. So as you shoot, very hot gas (up to 4500 degrees for a nanosecond) burn the sulfur out and create pockets or pitting in your barrel. It also aids in corrosion in that area. So, it is necessary to VAR (vacuum arc remelt) or remelt the steel to refine it. This helps, but there is still sulfur in your steel.
410 is sulfur free, for the most part. So it solves two of those issues right away, but also the supply LW gets is very high quality 410 with uniform grain and very good properties.
Sulfur is a lubricant. It is a great aid to machining. It is the base we commonly know a Moly or moly lube, which is Molybdenum Disulfide. This is why 416R cuts so well and uniformly...but would it give you better properties to your barrel life, no.
This is the reason 416R cuts so much better, and why LW pulls or pushes a button to make their barrels.
Another reason is LW barrels are all tight. Yes, they are usually about a full thousandth tight. This gives a better gas seal that reduces gas blow-by, which is the #1 cause of barrel erosion.
Studies show 70-85% of barrel wear is from gas erosion. Unless the barrel is super heated (above working temp of that steel), then the rifling is simply smashed down.
So hardness...harder tempers of the same steel are done at a lower temperature! Yes! So if the barrel is harder by heat treat, the operating temperature is less. That differs with different steels, so I'll get to that in chapter 2.
LW19 is apx 4340. Now, what's the difference. Both are low-alloy CM steels in the "through hardening" category. They are almost the same, except for the addition of some Nickle...hmmm Well this is an issue for most. Nickle is the bane of machining. Think Hastaloy or Inconel.
The additional Nickle makes this steel just as tough at a higher hardness, basically. This is why they make action of rifles from this steel. Nickle is tough, hence the chips that form like PH steels. I seen someone call LW19 17-4; it's not. It's not stainless, and PH steels are a mother to machine, unless you do everything right. Still, nickle is the reason.
Side note, chrome is somewhat good for machining. It can make a barrel slicker feeling and chip a tad better, but wear out tools a little faster as well. Harder isn't so bad, just smaller chips and different machining techniques is all. Ask anyone who has machined an action. Actually, I find steel too soft to be more difficult to machine (like why standard 4140 a touch soft can squeak and finish not smooth).
Now 4340 is better for barrel life and harder bullets. Say like using 855A1 and steel core bullets and ammo. Nickle also increases barrel operating temperature...so why doesn't the military use it? Blame that on the military industrial complex of lining pockets and replaceable vs better. Anyone really think Mil-Spec is better then the civilian stuff out there? Let's not. Sorry.
Now non-ferrous metals (nickle and chrome) are hardened by working them, hence why PH steels (precipitation hardened) work the way they do. So buttoning a barrel of 4340 and 410 can cause the surface to be a slightly harder then the body of the barrel, and this doesn't lend itself to chambering. But it is good for long life.
Short conclusion is that easier to machine steels are better for accuracy, but combat or long life barrels would gain from better steels. Now before chapter 2 I will say that those steels are steps to the available steel I have seen and played with...there are steels out there that make barrels last 50-100,000 rounds. Yes, I've seen it. Or steels so strong they can take 1500-1600 degrees without damage. But we will have to see if anyone will make them.
AJ
To start, let's address the topic of LW barrel steel.
LW50, the stainless, is their most common steel. They sell some 3 to 1 over CM (Chrome-Moly, i'll get that) in center-fire rifle barrels. Because of a few reasons.
LW-50 = 410 stainless.
Disclaimer: Alloy isn't everything. The quality and properties of each can very quite a bit. Grain refinement and how well the alloying elements are dispersed (precipitated within the iron matrix) or dissolved if you would. If a steel is cooled too slow they can form groups and carbides (like rocks in concrete) that can give an area of weakness. If cooled to fast, cracks can propagate and cause differential hardening, which stresses the steel, or simply too hard (too much detail to explain here).
What's that mean and why? The reason is complex, but not hard to understand. The most obvious is the .6% sulfur in 416. The sulfur is an issue; it can lump together in pockets or areas where it is richer then others. This makes it super easy to cut in one area, and a difficult in another. But more over, it burns...yes, imagine that. So as you shoot, very hot gas (up to 4500 degrees for a nanosecond) burn the sulfur out and create pockets or pitting in your barrel. It also aids in corrosion in that area. So, it is necessary to VAR (vacuum arc remelt) or remelt the steel to refine it. This helps, but there is still sulfur in your steel.
410 is sulfur free, for the most part. So it solves two of those issues right away, but also the supply LW gets is very high quality 410 with uniform grain and very good properties.
Sulfur is a lubricant. It is a great aid to machining. It is the base we commonly know a Moly or moly lube, which is Molybdenum Disulfide. This is why 416R cuts so well and uniformly...but would it give you better properties to your barrel life, no.
This is the reason 416R cuts so much better, and why LW pulls or pushes a button to make their barrels.
Another reason is LW barrels are all tight. Yes, they are usually about a full thousandth tight. This gives a better gas seal that reduces gas blow-by, which is the #1 cause of barrel erosion.
Studies show 70-85% of barrel wear is from gas erosion. Unless the barrel is super heated (above working temp of that steel), then the rifling is simply smashed down.
So hardness...harder tempers of the same steel are done at a lower temperature! Yes! So if the barrel is harder by heat treat, the operating temperature is less. That differs with different steels, so I'll get to that in chapter 2.
LW19 is apx 4340. Now, what's the difference. Both are low-alloy CM steels in the "through hardening" category. They are almost the same, except for the addition of some Nickle...hmmm Well this is an issue for most. Nickle is the bane of machining. Think Hastaloy or Inconel.
The additional Nickle makes this steel just as tough at a higher hardness, basically. This is why they make action of rifles from this steel. Nickle is tough, hence the chips that form like PH steels. I seen someone call LW19 17-4; it's not. It's not stainless, and PH steels are a mother to machine, unless you do everything right. Still, nickle is the reason.
Side note, chrome is somewhat good for machining. It can make a barrel slicker feeling and chip a tad better, but wear out tools a little faster as well. Harder isn't so bad, just smaller chips and different machining techniques is all. Ask anyone who has machined an action. Actually, I find steel too soft to be more difficult to machine (like why standard 4140 a touch soft can squeak and finish not smooth).
Now 4340 is better for barrel life and harder bullets. Say like using 855A1 and steel core bullets and ammo. Nickle also increases barrel operating temperature...so why doesn't the military use it? Blame that on the military industrial complex of lining pockets and replaceable vs better. Anyone really think Mil-Spec is better then the civilian stuff out there? Let's not. Sorry.
Now non-ferrous metals (nickle and chrome) are hardened by working them, hence why PH steels (precipitation hardened) work the way they do. So buttoning a barrel of 4340 and 410 can cause the surface to be a slightly harder then the body of the barrel, and this doesn't lend itself to chambering. But it is good for long life.
Short conclusion is that easier to machine steels are better for accuracy, but combat or long life barrels would gain from better steels. Now before chapter 2 I will say that those steels are steps to the available steel I have seen and played with...there are steels out there that make barrels last 50-100,000 rounds. Yes, I've seen it. Or steels so strong they can take 1500-1600 degrees without damage. But we will have to see if anyone will make them.
AJ
sable tireur
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2010
- Messages
- 3,394
This is the website of Lothar Walther here in the USA:
Lothar Walther
Woody Woodall is the owner of this company. I have had the great pleasure of many excellent conversations with him over the last 20 years. I'm not saying that we are best friends, rather we seem to have terrific conversations when we run into each other at a trade show or I call him on the phone to tap into the huge compendium of information stored in his memory. He is a true Mauser aficionado and is deeply devoted to barrel manufacturing and firearms.
As to the steel (LW50) that Lothar Walther uses:
** I have done no editing; this is exactly as received by a member on another site. **
This is the answer I received directly from Gerd Walther:
For you in AISI, it is the 420 alloy.
"I presume their supplier is Boehler Udderlohn in Austria." ed comment
R.G.C
The material we use is specialy made for us and we order not through a dealer, we order directly from the steel company here in Germany and Austria. We have the name in our house LW 50, the offical material name is X20Cr13 or if you like to look into the Stahlschlüssel, it have the number 1.4021. The steel is in a special way straightened, controled and headtreadet for our product. We know about that it isn`t easy if you like to work by your self with the steel,specialy with the standart chamber reamers which available on the marked) here all have to be corect, the tool have to be sharp speed and feed have to be corectly and it have to be used a special metal cutting oil.
Here is a metallurgical reply from another member:
AISI 420 is a Martensitic stainless commonly used in kitchen and surgical knives. It is not related to PH steels, requiring quenching from transformation to increase material condition. It is regarded as tough and stringy when machining. Steels with this characteristic often require special cutter geometry to achieve optimal results.
During one of the first conversations I had with Woody, he suggested that I increase the RPM of the barrel when chambering and use an oil with high sulfur content for chambering. He also spent a few minutes describing the reamer geometry to optimize the cutting of the chamber. At the time I was intent on using LW barrels for several projects so I got my reamer maker on board with the geometry in order that I could get several reamers made. I can describe the geometry as slightly more 'aggressive' than the standard reamers and they were made in carbide.
Following the procedures outlined by Woody, I never ran into any of the problems suggested here. The threads were excellent and the chamber took next to nothing for a final polish. More RPM, more sulfur oil with a slightly more aggressive reamer is all it takes.
I realize that there are few if any gunsmiths who will order special reamers just to use LW barrels so I think we can skip the potential criticism from that aspect. I understand the reasoning completely.
As to accuracy, this sums it up without me having to rewrite something:
"The guys that compete will spend whatever necessary, no matter where it was made. If they thought LW would put them in the "rankings", they'd use them. LW might be fine for a hunting barrel, but the question was about accuracy, not what degree of accuracy, but accuracy." -shortgrass-
All I can say is that for the dozen or so barrels I used, the accuracy was superb. I have no regrets and the clients were thrilled.
I have had the pleasure of using all of the top barrel maker's barrels. John Krieger's are right up there kicking and screaming. I don't have any problem using them when specified by a client although I use more Bartlein's than any other by a huge amount. I think that any gunsmith can order from all of the top makers and get a product which will serve their needs perfectly.
Regards.
Lothar Walther
Woody Woodall is the owner of this company. I have had the great pleasure of many excellent conversations with him over the last 20 years. I'm not saying that we are best friends, rather we seem to have terrific conversations when we run into each other at a trade show or I call him on the phone to tap into the huge compendium of information stored in his memory. He is a true Mauser aficionado and is deeply devoted to barrel manufacturing and firearms.
As to the steel (LW50) that Lothar Walther uses:
** I have done no editing; this is exactly as received by a member on another site. **
This is the answer I received directly from Gerd Walther:
For you in AISI, it is the 420 alloy.
"I presume their supplier is Boehler Udderlohn in Austria." ed comment
R.G.C
The material we use is specialy made for us and we order not through a dealer, we order directly from the steel company here in Germany and Austria. We have the name in our house LW 50, the offical material name is X20Cr13 or if you like to look into the Stahlschlüssel, it have the number 1.4021. The steel is in a special way straightened, controled and headtreadet for our product. We know about that it isn`t easy if you like to work by your self with the steel,specialy with the standart chamber reamers which available on the marked) here all have to be corect, the tool have to be sharp speed and feed have to be corectly and it have to be used a special metal cutting oil.
Here is a metallurgical reply from another member:
AISI 420 is a Martensitic stainless commonly used in kitchen and surgical knives. It is not related to PH steels, requiring quenching from transformation to increase material condition. It is regarded as tough and stringy when machining. Steels with this characteristic often require special cutter geometry to achieve optimal results.
During one of the first conversations I had with Woody, he suggested that I increase the RPM of the barrel when chambering and use an oil with high sulfur content for chambering. He also spent a few minutes describing the reamer geometry to optimize the cutting of the chamber. At the time I was intent on using LW barrels for several projects so I got my reamer maker on board with the geometry in order that I could get several reamers made. I can describe the geometry as slightly more 'aggressive' than the standard reamers and they were made in carbide.
Following the procedures outlined by Woody, I never ran into any of the problems suggested here. The threads were excellent and the chamber took next to nothing for a final polish. More RPM, more sulfur oil with a slightly more aggressive reamer is all it takes.
I realize that there are few if any gunsmiths who will order special reamers just to use LW barrels so I think we can skip the potential criticism from that aspect. I understand the reasoning completely.
As to accuracy, this sums it up without me having to rewrite something:
"The guys that compete will spend whatever necessary, no matter where it was made. If they thought LW would put them in the "rankings", they'd use them. LW might be fine for a hunting barrel, but the question was about accuracy, not what degree of accuracy, but accuracy." -shortgrass-
All I can say is that for the dozen or so barrels I used, the accuracy was superb. I have no regrets and the clients were thrilled.
I have had the pleasure of using all of the top barrel maker's barrels. John Krieger's are right up there kicking and screaming. I don't have any problem using them when specified by a client although I use more Bartlein's than any other by a huge amount. I think that any gunsmith can order from all of the top makers and get a product which will serve their needs perfectly.
Regards.
Extremist458
Well-Known Member
The difference, by designation, between 410 and 420 is .15% max carbon to .15% minimum. Really. Some companies will reduce the nickle, most keep it the same. Some add .5% Molybdenum, some don't. But really it's the source that matters most. If they get it from BU, it's **** fine steel. Still, the difference is less then 10% gain in tensile strength and yield strength. Hardness is maybe a half to 1 point HRC difference. That again wouldn't add up to much (1/3 of 1%). So the only real difference is the Sulfur.
P.S. It is not 420HC. Even if the Carbon was at max of .4%, at the hardness (temper) barrels are subject to, it would be less then 10% difference in all properties.
P.S. It is not 420HC. Even if the Carbon was at max of .4%, at the hardness (temper) barrels are subject to, it would be less then 10% difference in all properties.
