Level level level

For custom rifles with high quality barrels attached to receivers that have been trued, and rings that have a low lateral offset between the rail and ring axis, the use of a level on the rail followed by a level on the scope or a plumb bob down range should get the scope reticle or elevation axis within 0.125" of the bore.
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Bruce Thank you for your informative post. I am not sure if you read my method but it is similar to the one you mentioned. Rail mounted level and plumb line board that I set permanently at 80 yards from my work bench. After that I shoot it in to confirm true reticle travel on another plumb line at 100 yards.

If I understand correctly you feel this method could still have .125" of error between scope and bore. Do you feel I would benefit from the RingTrue tool ? I am of the same school of removing all error as possible and work hard to do this in every aspect from proper data entry, ES , powder stability and anything I feel I have control of.

Thanks
Jeff
 
Bruce,

I actually agree with everything that you have said but there is a source of error that you aren't taking into consideration. That is the shooter's ability to hold the reticle on the POA. If canting the rifle gives a shooter a more solid hold, then canting can more than offset a POI shift introduced by the cant. Remember I'm only talking about canting the rifle about 1/4" from reticle to bore. If I read your post correctly, the device that you are using won't guarantee better than 1/8" error. If you zero at 100 yards, with a ¼" cant then you have about ¼ moa of error. I zero at 200 yards so my cant only introduces a ¼" error for every 200 yards.

Take the 100 yard zero as an example, shooting at 1000 yards. From 100yds to 1000yds the error is multiplied 9 times (9/4"). That's only a 2.25" offset at 1000 yards. Shooting a Federal 175gr SMK at sea level, a ¼ mph wind will blow the bullet off 2.4". There are just too many errors in the system to make a ¼" cant significant.

Lets assume that all of your data is perfect (atmospherics, aeronautical jump, spin drift, coriolis, variation in powder temperature, handloading variations, variation between turret & reticle). In order to repeatedly hit you POA at 1000 yards, you would still have to correctly judge the wind to within ¼ mph.

I'd rather gain a steadier hold and accept a ¼ moa offset that I can calculate. Of course my entire point goes out the window if you don't get a steadier hold by canting.
 
I think what has been missed earlier is that once scope elevation is plumb, cant error is removed with that 'firing level'.
Now all that's left is any drift offset from the bore underneath, while firing at ranges different than zero range. This is independent from elevation dial/hold at that point, and is a matter only of windage dial/hold.

It's hard to predict how much offset there would be because even the best barrel brand bores index to something other than perfectly straight. And then there is the matter of an action bedded into a stock without accounting for this, or even stock perfectly level for that matter.
So I don't think we can get offset perfect.
But we know we can get things close enough, and that takes care of offset best as we can.

Well, any normal bit of offset is not as damaging as cant. Nowhere near so.
I really want to remove cant.
So I do so by setting my scope elevation adjustment plumb.
 
I think what has been missed earlier is that once scope elevation is plumb, cant error is removed with that 'firing level'.
Now all that's left is any drift offset from the bore underneath, while firing at ranges different than zero range. This is independent from elevation dial/hold at that point, and is a matter only of windage dial/hold.

It's hard to predict how much offset there would be because even the best barrel brand bores index to something other than perfectly straight. And then there is the matter of an action bedded into a stock without accounting for this, or even stock perfectly level for that matter.
So I don't think we can get offset perfect.
But we know we can get things close enough, and that takes care of offset best as we can.

Well, any normal bit of offset is not as damaging as cant. Nowhere near so.
I really want to remove cant.
So I do so by setting my scope elevation adjustment plumb.

Agree although I think there is a small amount of vertical offset created by a canted stock/plumb reticle combination. Eliminating cant w/a scope mounted level is crucial.
 
...If I understand correctly you feel this method could still have .125" of error between scope and bore. Do you feel I would benefit from the RingTrue tool ? I am of the same school of removing all error as possible and work hard to do this in every aspect from proper data entry, ES , powder stability and anything I feel I have control of.

Thanks
Jeff
That depends a lot on your rifles and rings. Custom rifles usually have trued receivers and straight barrels, so there is no significant offset between the receiver and the bore at the muzzle. Some rings have less offset than others. That's not information that ring manufacturers usually provide. Unless you measure the offset, you won't know how well centered the rings are.

If your gun safe has some factory rifles with a variety of different rings, however, then the chances of having a misaligned reticle are pretty good. If you don't already have a reticle alignment tool and a high quality spirit level, then you will find the RingTrue tool to be pretty useful.

I developed the RingTrue Reticle Alignment Tool because I saw the need for features that I didn't see in other tools:
  1. Accurate spirit level. The RingTrue tool is hand assembled on a level surface plate and the spirit level is permanently aligned to within +/-0.25 degree of plumb (+/- 15 MOA). It's guaranteed to be accurate to within +/- 0.5 degree. This accuracy is needed for aligning an anti-cant indicator. The accuracy is much better than hardware store levels, the Level Level Level, and most other alignment tools.
  2. Reticle alignment tool. The use of the RingTrue tool to plumb the rifle and align a reticle and/or turret axis to the rifle bore is quick and requires no other tools. It can be used just about anywhere: at the range, in your garage, or on your kitchen table.
  3. Right angle. Often you need a right angle to index off the side of the turret housing because the top is blocked by a large knob. All the edges of the RingTrue tool are machined to be square and provide surfaces that are either parallel or perpendicular to the spirit level.
  4. Index lines for aligning printed targets plumb to the earth. Plumb bobs require some time to set up and are not easy to use at a public range. The clear substrate and printed bold center line on the Ring True tool enables a target to be easily aligned so that the vertical lines are plumb to the earth.
  5. Good balance. The tool is designed with a low center of gravity so that it will rest upright on a turret cap without falling over.
My objective was to put all of those features in one tool and sell it for an affordable price. At $30, the RingTrue tool is a pretty good bargain, especially when you consider that it actually eliminates the reticle misalignment error, provides an accurate plumb line for aligning a target or an anti-cant indicator, and you really don't need any other tools.
http://www.highpoweroptics.com/ringtrue%C3%82%E2%84%A2-reticle-alignment-tool-p-16566.html
 
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...If canting the rifle gives a shooter a more solid hold, then canting can more than offset a POI shift introduced by the cant. Remember I'm only talking about canting the rifle about 1/4" from reticle to bore. If I read your post correctly, the device that you are using won't guarantee better than 1/8" error. If you zero at 100 yards, with a ¼" cant then you have about ¼ moa of error. I zero at 200 yards so my cant only introduces a ¼" error for every 200 yards.

Take the 100 yard zero as an example, shooting at 1000 yards. From 100yds to 1000yds the error is multiplied 9 times (9/4"). That's only a 2.25" offset at 1000 yards. Shooting a Federal 175gr SMK at sea level, a ¼ mph wind will blow the bullet off 2.4". There are just too many errors in the system to make a ¼" cant significant.

Lets assume that all of your data is perfect (atmospherics, aeronautical jump, spin drift, coriolis, variation in powder temperature, handloading variations, variation between turret & reticle). In order to repeatedly hit you POA at 1000 yards, you would still have to correctly judge the wind to within ¼ mph.

I'd rather gain a steadier hold and accept a ¼ moa offset that I can calculate. Of course my entire point goes out the window if you don't get a steadier hold by canting.
Actually, a reticle alignment tool can reduce the angular alignment error down to the accuracy of the spirit level. In the case of the RingTrue tool, that's better than 0.5 degree, which is equivalent to about 1/64 inch of lateral offset or less from the bore. In practice, less than 1/32 inch of offset is probably more likely. But that's just a minor point.

I agree the error resulting from a 1/4 inch offset is small - nearly a 1/4 MOA click at long range for a 100 yd zero. But if you don't know which direction it's in then it's really a +/- 1 click error, because it could be either direction.

My first question is: how do you know the reticle misalignment from the bore is 1/4 inch? Rifle cant is only one cause. There is also receiver/barrel misalignment, barrel curvature, and ring offset. Are you saying that you measured all of the them and the total reticle misalignment from the bore is 1/4"?

But wait a minute. 1/4 MOA click turrets are pretty coarse to begin with for long range shooting. Many shooters would prefer 1/8 MOA resolution turrets, but don't want to count that many clicks. Having 1/4 MOA click turrets is already a compromise. Now you're proposing that nearly +/- 1 click error is acceptable. For many long range shooters that much aiming error is not acceptable.

And that's just one source of windage error. I know your hypothetical case corrected for all ballistic errors, except for reticle misalignment. In practice, however, if I compromised on this source of error, then I probably ignored spin drift as well. Maybe I was a little hasty when I aligned the anti-cant indicator and it's off a degree. How do all these errors combine? Do I now have 2 or 3 clicks of error? In what direction?

In long range shooting, unless we eliminate all these seemingly small sources of error, we don't have confidence that they won't combine to make a more significant aiming error. It's all part of a discipline that long range shooters strive for because we know that we may not get a second shot.

I follow your argument for canting the rifle to improve your hold. I don't understand how just 1/4 inch of rifle cant can make the difference between a steady hold and and an unsteady one, but I'll accept that it's the situation you're in. You gotta do what you gotta do. It sounds to me like an isolated case, rather than a common one.

If it were me, I would find a way to hold the rifle steady without causing a reticle misalignment. I might use scope rings with an offset in the opposite direction. I might even modify my stock.
 
Bruce,
I know the offset is counterclockwise because I canted the stock that way to fit my shoulder and I measured the 1/4" from the center of the ocular to the center of the chamber. I know that's not a perfect measurement but with calipers, I think that I am close.

As for receiver/barrel misalignment, barrel curvature, and ring offset, does anyone measure that? Likewise, spin drift, aligning scope level, really any calculation are not factors exclusive to canting a stock. Everyone has to deal with them.

Like you, I try to eliminate every variable that I can. W/o going into an exhaustive list, I account (as best I can) for every variable that Bryan Litz has discussed in his books. The only source of error that I'm willing to accept is offset error caused by my intentionally canting the stock in a know direction and distance.

All I can say is try canting the stock and see if it gives you a more natural shooting position. Then you can decide if the gain is worth the know offset.
 
Sorry. They are in stock now. Bad data on the website.
Running low but another lot of tools is due tomorrow.

Order placed! Thank you. I have a feeling this tool is going to relieve me of a lot of the frustration I have whenever I'm trying to square up the reticle when I'm mounting a new scope.
 
Update.....I bought the Ring True Alignment Tool and was very impressed. Quick and easy to use. Shot out to 500yds this weekend with no problems. Highly recommend it.
 
For custom rifles with high quality barrels attached to receivers that have been trued, and rings that have a low lateral offset between the rail and ring axis, the use of a level on the rail followed by a level on the scope should get the scope reticle or elevation axis within 0.125" of the bore.

Bruce,

As per your comments above and using a precision digital level, I've been able to level my rail with my scope elevation cap to within less than 1\10 of a degree. It appears my reticle and bore are plumb, but do I need other testing to confirm this for accurate 500-600yd hunting?

Ted
 
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