Killin' Science And Bullet Selection For The Layman

Discussion in 'Technical Articles - Discussion' started by ADMIN, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. ADMIN

    ADMIN Administrator

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    This is a thread for discussion of the article, Killin' Science And Bullet Selection For The Layman, By Tres MonCeret. Here you can ask questions or make comments about the article.
     

  2. tomestone

    tomestone Well-Known Member

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    Great article we use to shoot moose with 180gr, 30-06 now we use 165gr sst and have lost no moose. The faster bullets seem to do more damage not to the meat but to the shock of the hit,they lay down sooner.:) tomestone
     

  3. 1dirthawker

    1dirthawker Member

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    although i agreed with most of the info you put out in the article, cant agree with it all.

    although theory is nice, long bullet holes in vitals is nicer.:cool: energy alone is NOT what kills. all of your commentary on how bullets work was correct, but, i would rather have a bit of energy going out the other side of the animal for a couple reasons, even if it means wasting some.

    first, it means the critter has 2 holes to leak out of. now, ever since i was little i was taught to put 2 holes in a juice can.:) second, it means that my bullet got all the way thru the animal and the vitals i was aiming for.

    what actually kills an animal is a shutting off of the central nervous system or they suffocate. they suffocate due to blood loss, not energy absorbtion. they lose blood, does not feed the brain and other parts oxygen and they shut down due to hypoxia (fancy way to say lack of oxygen). again, energy can be the vehicle of that suffocation (blood loss) but not the reason they died.

    i have shot what is becoming lots of deer, moose, caribou, dall sheep, mt goats, elk, black and brown bears and have seen even more shot. energy does not kill larger animals especially bears. (been guiding in ak for last 11 years).

    saw one brown bear shot 5 times with a 300 ultra mag. that bear soaked up lots of energy, but evidently the bullets were not getting thru to the vitals. hunter shot it once with a 300 um, the guide broke its back as it ran off with a 375 h & h, the hunter continued to shoot the bear 4 or 5 more times (was watching the show from a fishing boat) and talked verified everthing with the guide later.

    holes thru the vitals kills stuff. now if the bullet gets to the vitals and dumps a bunch of energy and destroys lots of tissue, the more tissue wrecked means the quicker an animal is killed. but, if hit in the vitals with a barnes x or a berger of same caliber, both animals are just as dead.

    a hole thru their lungs and shoulders does it every time. now i am not saying that a barnes bullet is better or worse than a berger or a max bullet. i just wanted to clarify that energy by itself does not kill stuff. heck, otherwise would not even matter where we hit the critters.

    a good article, thanks for writing it,

    birdman
     
  4. CRaTxn

    CRaTxn Well-Known Member

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    Entrance wounds are small holes made by unexpanded bullets that do not bleed as much as exit holes. The bullet has not expanded and the permanent and temporary wound channels are some distance inside the animal (unless you hit a shoulder blade etc.)...the ragged edged expanded bullets makes a nasty exit wound for a blood trail. Would be nice if we never needed to find an animal that did not die close to where it was shot BUT that is reality. Archers know the value of a blood trail in recovering game animals. Big thick skinned animals at close range may not always pose for a "proper" double lunger profile. Hell, I've even had coyotes running away hump up at the shot and make it to thick cover with a varmint bullet that did not make is past the pelvic and viscera. For me , put a Barnes X up the snout while you are walking in to your LRH high ground then exchange it for Berger VLDs while you are glassing , then back in for the walk out. My reasoning is that usually I am presented with a Texas Heart Shot from an animal I jump walking in or walking out and don't have the option of waiting for a perfect side shot. Once I am in my blind or hide, those animals are unaware and I do have time to wait for the proper presentation. Another reason for Barnes Xs when still hunting is that deep penetration allows taking the onside organ and offside shoulder or vise versa to anchor the animal right there BUT that is not LRH and this forum is.

    Ditto about the bears. I have taken and guided several blacks and browns and it is amazing how far and into what crap they can go to expire with heart/lung shots. Better to break them down and turn off the CNS or at least wreck the drive train/transmission.
     
  5. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    YIKES!

    I enjoyed the article but cringe when someone says that energy is "wasted" because the bullet exited.

    A larger wound channel IS caused by a bullet at higher velocity.
    If I am hunting a Whitetail deer and follow your "energy dump", I will try to pick a bullet that won't exit on a broadside shot so perhaps 14 inches of penetration would be a max.

    On a quartering away shot if I might have to enter behind the ribs, traverse the liver puncture the diaphragm, lung and hopefully still reach the heart. Even if it falls short of the heart he should not go too far.

    On the same shot I misjudge the wind or he moves a few inches forward and instead of hitting the guts, liver, diaphragm, and lung I now hit the rear ham.
    Now my bullet has to traverse big muscle, guts and I have used up my energy and I suspect he has about 4 hours to expire if I don't push him.

    Personally I want an exit, not for a blood trail, but for the fact that if it has the energy to exit it has the energy to make it to the vitals on a less than perfect broadside shot :)

    edge.
    PS
    I do not mean to imply that MY WAY is the only way, and obviously folks need to hunt the way that makes the most sense for them and should not worry about other folks theories including mine :)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  6. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    Entertaining article. Plenty of words :D. All bullets are effective when understood and used accordingly.
     
  7. jimd46902

    jimd46902 Member

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    I shoot alot of game with a bow, and I rarely have an animal go 60 yards after a good hit, but that is with a Rage broadhead and a good shot. No energy in the shock but it does a good job of hemostatic pressure loss. So it seems there are 3 ways to kill, Pressure loss, damage (blood loss) or Devastating shock.
     
  8. FGRshooter

    FGRshooter Member

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    Only elk I ever could not recover was shot at relatively close range (250yds) with a light, fast bullet that penetrated both shoulders and exited. Found him 12hrs later and he bolted like nothing had happened. This particular bullet held together so well that it managed to miss major arteries and I suspect was on the high side of the lungs. Obviously a less than perfect shot but now I use bullets that will give me a little extra leeway and create a more destructive wound channel. That's my medicine but if it kills, use it.
     
  9. CRaTxn

    CRaTxn Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry but timeout, BS. Jim the deer's cardiovascular system is a closed loop system. I hate to tell you but you have NOT invented another i.e. third way to kill deer through "pressure loss". To lose pressure, you have to have blood loss...there is no valve stem you put your Rage broadhead in and let air out of the deer. Think hemorrhage
     
  10. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    I won't argue with either of you.

    The deer absolutely falls down quickly due to the loss of blood pressure, but dies due to lack of oxygen which takes several minutes.

    A bullet or broadhead that severs the arteries above the heart almost instantly deprive the brain of oxygen and you get the characteristic head down death run. This happens much too fast for much loss of blood and can only come from near zero blood pressure pushing oxygenated blood through the brain.
    I do agree that death eventually comes from the lack of oxygenated blood to the brain.

    edge.
     
  11. jimd46902

    jimd46902 Member

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    I agree with both of you and I didn't try to invent another way to die, but when the deer takes off at a run and then sumersaults to the ground, it is hemorrage as you say but it is the lack of blood pressure that caused a black-out. Then they die of hemorrage and lack of oxygen.
     
  12. CRaTxn

    CRaTxn Well-Known Member

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    Loss of blood pressure is DUE TO loss of volume in the closed loop system. Insufficient pressure to push enough volume of oxygen enriched blood through the brain makes mammals light-headed, then unconscious, then comatose and then one crosses over to the Long Range Happy Hunting Grounds.
    I respect Jim's ability to successfully hunt with a primitive stick and string (or not so primitive carbon arrow & compound bow)...that's about all I know of him and his past.
    I very much respect Shane's documented skill at LRH and enjoy the knowledge he shares on this and other forums, but I want our forum to be factual based (could be the attention-to-detail pilot in me).
    So in both cases I am not attacking them but their expressed theories. In the US Air Force Aviation Physiology courses we not only study but do lab work with our own body in altitude chambers to learn and periodically refresh our recognition of the various symptoms of hypoxia (oxygen starvation) and its neurological effects. Our modus is the altitude chamber whereby we change the partial pressure of the O2 in solution in our blood stream by changing atmospheric pressure i.e. sea level to 35,000 feet. We don't kill deer by ascending them to FL350, we take some of the blood out of their closed loop system.
     
  13. jimd46902

    jimd46902 Member

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    LOL, I agree and bow to your expertise. I was mistaken and bow out gracefully with my tail between my legs. I really do appreciate your posts and hope to learn more in the future. :) I still hunt with real stick and string, I make my own one piece wooden bows, nettle fiber string, river cane shafts with my own knapped points but am getting joint problems in my shooting fingers from too many years of flat bow shooting.
     
  14. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    So death from a heart attack is due to loss of blood... :)

    I didn't think so, it is from the brain being deprived of O2.
    A broadhead, bullet, electrical shock or a thousand other reasons can cause the heart to not beat.

    A bullet obliterating the heart muscle will cause some blood loss, but not the 15% or more of your total supply needed to kill you.
    While you will bleed out over time, you will be unconscious almost instantly because the brain can't work without a fresh supply of oxygenated blood.

    Now you can cut off your arm and you will most likely remain conscious for a significant amount of time...at least compared to the victim without a beating heart ie: blood pressure.

    edge.