Is it best to start on lands/load work-up!

[boscodog]

First build for me and I want to start out right.
I'm having a 338/300 "Edge" built and I will be using 300grn. Bergers.
What is the best way to begin working up a load-on the lands or off, and if off where?
Also what is your procedure?

Thanx for taking the time guys, well appreciated!
Tom

 

[barefooter56]

Tom,
For a hunting application we suggest you start at .015 off the lands then work back in .015 increments from there. Always use the LOWEST POWDER CHARGE LISTED FOR THE BULLET/POWDER/CARTRIDGE combination you are testing. Then work your load up in 1/2 grain increments until you get 2 grains below MAXIMUM then drop to 1/10th grain increments. All the while check for pressure signs and accuracy. You may not be able to get these rounds to cycle through your magazine however due to this bullets length. Even though it is a Hybrid and very tolerant of jump it is a long bullet. A longer aftermarket magazine box and bottom metal may help. We do have load data listed for the 338 Edge on our website under LOAD DATA. Hope this helps! If you need any more help please feel free to contact us at [email protected] or post again in this string.
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullets Tech

 

[Mikecr]

I agree with Phil, and clarify that you should fully test seating depth for ~best -before incremental load development or OCW testing. You can do this while fireforming your brass at a lower than max charge.
With this, your best charge to follow should be easier to spot, and then with that you can tweak seating a few thou each way to shape grouping, and hopefully you'll have ~5thou seating window about this best.
Some combinations are very tolerant while others require very tight seating control/setting.

 

[barefooter56]

+1 Mike !
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech

 

[boscodog]

I agree with Phil, and clarify that you should fully test seating depth for ~best -before incremental load development or OCW testing. You can do this while fireforming your brass at a lower than max charge.
With this, your best charge to follow should be easier to spot, and then with that you can tweak seating a few thou each way to shape grouping, and hopefully you'll have ~5thou seating window about this best.
Some combinations are very tolerant while others require very tight seating control/setting.

Thank you both Miker and Phil for answering!
Still have questions-first, what dose OCW mean? Also I'd like to understand why you both believe that it is important to start with OAL first? Iv read and heard more than a few say that they start with load work up first to find the best group, starting on the lands and then working back to find best OAL.

Also I've been told that there has been enough data on the Edge thus far that I could start with 90grn of H1000, saving time and money-do you agree?

 

[barefooter56]

boscodog,
There are two schools of thought on load testing. One says find the load then find the seating depth sweet spot. The other says find the cartridge overall length sweet spot then work the load up. They both work. The one thing that is common to both is that you start at the lowest powder charge listed for your bullet/powder/cartridge combination and work up. IMHO I wouldn't use the 90 grain of H1000 as a starting point if your manual lists a lower starting load. No two rifles are chambered the same so what may work or be the standard starting point for them may be overpressure for you. There really are no shortcuts. You have to find what YOUR rifle likes as far as seating depth and velocity to be safe and get the most out of the rifle.
Hope this helps!
Take care,
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech.

 

[DocDoc]

OCW = optimal charge weight
OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System links to an article.

 

[boscodog]

Phil, I do realize that there are two schools of thought as to which way to start to build a load, my hope was to understand yours and Mikecrs reasons for choosing to start with seating depth first?

Also, if it is accuracy that I'm looking for, why not start at or just before the lands. Using the rifle as a hunting gun I understand not wanting to stick a bullet in the field but shouldn't I be starting closer? Do 300 bergers shoot well on or just off the lands?

Thanx,
Tom

 

[Varmint Hunter]

If the rifle/ammo is to be used for hunting then you may want to consider what the longest magazine tolerant length is before you try the .015" off method.
Oddly enough, many rifles shoot quite well with bullets loaded to magazine length which can be a looong way off the rifling.
If you're OK with single round loading than none of this matters but most hunters want to be able to feed from the magazine.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mikecr]

why not start at or just before the lands

Then I would wonder why you did this.
After all, there is no reason for a seating number pulled from nowhere to be right.

My reasoning for testing and testing first;
In my experience seating testing is vital to best accuracy. Assumptions here are not prudent.
Also in my experience seating testing has a far bigger affect to results than powder testing. That is, seating testing(actual testing) is the coarse adjustment, and powder is the fine adjustment.
And with anything calibrated, you adjust coarse first, then fine.
Tweaking seating for group shaping is not seating testing(it's tweaking).

OCW helps you locate a desirable powder node. It doesn't even consider seating, and that's fine because seating has nothing to do with powder. But my thinking is that it will be easier to see best powder at good seating rather than bad to begin. Your ladder should look better too.

Keep in mind that many from 'the other school' have been accepting or outright declaring for years that VLDs needed to be jammed to shoot(as a rule).
Yet most of us actually testing did not find that to be true.
Berger's seating testing procedure has enlightened more.

 

[boscodog]

If the rifle/ammo is to be used for hunting then you may want to consider what the longest magazine tolerant length is before you try the .015" off method.
Oddly enough, many rifles shoot quite well with bullets loaded to magazine length which can be a looong way off the rifling.
If you're OK with single round loading than none of this matters but most hunters want to be able to feed from the magazine.
Just my 2 cents.

I'll be using. Stiller predator L/A with a wyatts extended L/A magazine, should be able to get 3.990 AOL. So using as a repeater should be no problem, also my smith will be having a reamer cut to my specs. Coming up with the AOL is something I'm open to suggestions on. I'm thinking that with a 3.990 mag box it might be a good idea to have the reamer cut at 3.900 OAL then I will have the ability to chase the lands should they shorten.

 

[ohiohunter]

So how do you start with seating depth before you have an OCW? Could you walk us through this?

 

[boscodog]

Then I would wonder why you did this.
After all, there is no reason for a seating number pulled from nowhere to be right.

My reasoning for testing and testing first;
In my experience seating testing is vital to best accuracy. Assumptions here are not prudent.
Also in my experience seating testing has a far bigger affect to results than powder testing. That is, seating testing(actual testing) is the coarse adjustment, and powder is the fine adjustment.
And with anything calibrated, you adjust coarse first, then fine.
Tweaking seating for group shaping is not seating testing(it's tweaking).

OCW helps you locate a desirable powder node. It doesn't even consider seating, and that's fine because seating has nothing to do with powder. But my thinking is that it will be easier to see best powder at good seating rather than bad to begin. Your ladder should look better too.

Keep in mind that many from 'the other school' have been accepting or outright declaring for years that VLDs needed to be jammed to shoot(as a rule).
Yet most of us actually testing did not find that to be true.
Berger's seating testing procedure has enlightened more.

Now there's an answer! You are the first to give me an example with reasoning; per-testing.
My reason for asking "why not start at the land or just off" is that, that's what some recommendations have been to me by others who have don it that way. You are the first guys I've asked that I've asked why.

Please read my last post and let me know what your suggestion is on OAL reamer.

Tom

 

[Mikecr]

So how do you start with seating depth before you have an OCW? Could you walk us through this?

Back off a couple grains from book max and run Bergers test: http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...accuracy-berger-vld-bullets-your-rifle-40204/
You can do this while fireforming brass if you like.
I see Berger as optimistic about the useful seating window width, and I extend testing to get ~10thou of best. Then I move to powder.
I don't do OCW, but instead a traditional ladder at 300yds. Then as mentioned I take my best seating so far + my best powder node, and add tweaking of seating both directions in a couple thou increments while group shooting at 200yds to dial in my very best(round groups).

Results depend on many things,, your chosen combination, barring any issues with components or primer striking, scope/mouning, rest, etc. This is still an abstract that could have you starting over completely with any change. But at least it's logical in progression.

boscodog, I would not be so concerned about 'chasing lands'. If you find best seating, you can stick with that setting. Land chasing only matters for those relying on a pressure node (different subject).
What I would consider with your reamer is keeping bullet bearing away from neck-shoulder junction. There is nothing but higher MV variance and fleeting tune there.
I'd have to pull up the cartridge and look at it with your intended bullet in software to give a recommendation.