How often do you clean your barrels and why?

[supercrossbmx69]

So last night I stumbled upon a post by Shawn Carlock back from 2008. It was about his smallest group he had shot and it was with a 260 that had not been cleaned in over 200 rounds, or had he done any barrel break in with the rifle. A lot of people were shocked that he shot such a good group with a rifle that had not been cleaned in so long. He then explained that he doesn't clean any of his rifles unless needed due to the accuracy falling off because of too much copper fouling. This got me thinking... Should I put the cleaning rod away???

Here is a quote from gale McMillan that somebody posted in Shawn's thread that I found very interesting:

"As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'."

Here's the link if you care to read it, I strongly suggest you do.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/my-smallest-3-shot-group-35175/


How do you feel about this? I personally do not like cleaning my barrels not because I'm lazy, but because I hate wasting rounds and barrel life trying to rebuild that copper build up in the rifling to get my rifle to shoot how it did before I cleaned it. What effect does copper fouling have on a barrels life besides accuracy declination? None from my understanding. I understand that carbon has a negative affect on barrels, but how bad does it affect the life of a barrel? But how do I know if gale was saying don't clean your barrels because he wanted to make more barrels? I don't. My smith recommended I clean the barrel every 50 rounds or so, and when he says clean, he means stripping the copper and copper out. I personally prefer to focus on carbon and leave the copper fouling alone until accuracy tells me otherwise.

 

[bill123]

I didn't start thinking about this much until I bought a custom gun (GA Precision .308 w/ Bartlein barrel). I did a ton of research and then did the typical break in. Shoot 1 clean, shoot 2 clean, etc... I then shot about 1000 rounds through it, cleaning the powder residue out after each shooting session (patches and solvent only). My shooting sessions are typically 40 rounds of 5 shot groups. W/ 168 gr SMK's my average group was 9/16" over the 1000 rounds. Some of my groups were always 1/4"-3/8" some were always 13/16". After 1000 rounds I copper cleaned. I shot maybe 500 more rounds through it w/ no change in accuracy. My groups only got better after experimenting w/ different ammo. I now have 2,500 rounds through the gun and won't copper clean until the accuracy degrades.

I'm not sure that there will ever be one right answer to this question. I suspect that there are too many variables. Quality of the barrel, caliber, type of ammo, how hot you let the barrel get between shots. I've read advise from many outstanding shooters who get consistently outstanding results with completely opposite cleaning strategies.

The one question I have is, does powder residue left in a barrel degrade the barrel? Some say yes, some say no. For those who say yes, how are you removing it? According to M-Pro7's Copper Cleaner instructions, bullets leave layers of powder and copper fouling on top of each other. If that's true, then I suspect that even if you clean out the powder until your patches are perfectly white, there is more powder residue under successive layers of copper.

 

[Hunter2678]

I clean my kreigers after 150-200 rounds usually. I use wipeout on a patch and that does the trick.

 

[RT2506]

Unless I have been out hunting in the rain and snow I only clean when accuracy starts to fall off. I have seen lots more damage done to barrels by cleaning them too much than I have by not cleaning them. Way back a number of years ago I cleaned my custom Shilen barrel 25-06 really well removing all the copper. I had to shoot about 40 rounds before it would start grouping again. It came to me then don't mess with a good thing. As long as it is shooting little bitty groups leave it alone.

 

[Mikecr]

I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

First, you should go ahead and prove any of your implications, annecdotal notions, and have no clues, -with documentation.. Right?

IMO, this is a bad way to solicit reasoning one way or another..

 

[MontanaRifleman]

First, my general rule of thumb is not to cleaan the baarrel until accuracy starts to fall off or when i might think it will start falling off based on prior history. That said, during load development, I will clean between different types of bullets and sometimes different types of powders and they can affect accuracy when you mix them. Also, if the rifle is going to be put up for a good long time, I will also clean it.

On barrel break-in, different guys do it for different reasons and use different methods. A lot of guys like myself do it just to conditon the throat and bore (mostly the throat) to "smooth" it out to reduce fouling. This is not all that necessary with a good custom match grade barrel, but IMO, there is some benefit, especially if you are going to nitride the barrel. This may take 5-20 rounds or more depending if the rifle is custom or factory and the condition of the throat and bore. Others, like mostly competitive shooters do it for the above reason as well as to season the barrel for velocity and accuracy. These are the ones who do the 100 round break-in's. I have seen improvement along the lines of less fouling after accomplishing break-ins with my rifles.

This article by Gale McMillan is widely quoted by those who do not subscribe to barrel break-in. It is filled with outlandish statements. My response in in bold.

"As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good.

This has nothing to do with the process of PROPERLY breaking-in a barrel and using PROPER cleaning techniques. Damaged bores from cleaning are due to IMPROPER cleaning techniques.

The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

I cannot comment on the accuracy of this statement but assuming it's true, this applies only to a percentage of rifles that fall into this category and they will usually be factory rifles. A break-in can still be helpful in this case even if it does not cure the problem.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

This is a skewed misrepresentation. I have never used more than 30 rounds to break-in a barrle and never more than 15 rounds in a custom match grade barrel. Competetive shooters who take up to 100 rounds to break-in a rilfe do so to get the most consistent performance out of a "conditioned" bore. They accept the loss of barrel life for better overall performance. Most non-competitive shooters take much less than 100 rounds to break-n a barrel. It can be argued that barrels that are broke-in require less frequent cleanings resulting in less after cleaning fouling shots.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method.

On the contrary, the explanation is very simple as I have explained above. Running bullets through the throat and bore help wear down roughness in the throat and bore from tooling marks. Cleaning after each shot is necessary because after a shot, the resulting fouling shrouds the roughness and follow on shots accomplish little to nothing without removing the fouling.

Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels.

Who knows the motive of the mentioned barrel maker? It does not matter and has no relevance to whether or not a break-in is beneficial.

I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone.

That is the opinion of Mr McMillan and some others. There are yet others who disagree them. This would be very difficult to prove one way or another. It often takes many rounds to develop an accurate load for a rifle and barrel. Once a load had been developed a rifle might shoot that load many hundreds or even thousands of times without any significant degradation of accuracy. No two barrels are alike nor do they behave the same. It is very possible and IMO, likely that some barrels may improve in accuracy to a certain point and some may do the opposite to a small, maybe not even noticeable extent. Depending on the cartridge and barrel competitive shooters will not change out a barrel for several hundred or several thousand rounds through it. Just another outlandish statement.

If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind.

Done

As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash.

False. The physical properties of a barrel change with each shot fired down the tube. Physical wear, heat checking, throat erosion, etc.

I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

All I know is that I have documented it for myself. After a careful one shot and clean break-in, my bores were easier to clean due to reduced fouling.

It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life.

Hearsay... another repeated outlandish statement. Has nothing to do with the relevance of whether break-in is beneficial or not.

I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records

So what? There are probably many world records held by shooters who broke their barrels in as well as those who did not. IMO, it has very little to do with accuracy, but very much to do with condiditoning the throat and bore to foul less.

...and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds.

Now I am really confused.... First Mr McMillan says that barrels are ruined due to too much cleaning and then he tells is customers to clean as often as possible. What's the deal? If you clean a barrel after every 10 rounds and use 2 rounds to foul after each cleaning, you will have ****ed away 200 rounds for every 1000 rounds fired. Now tell me, just who is trying to sell more barrels?


I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear.

Once again, irrelevant.

 

[Mikecr]

Well said Mark.
And there are reasons for cleaning more or less often as well.

Truly, there are very few things in shooting that actually apply across the board.