How much brass????

[mrb1982]

Just out of curiousity, how much brass do you think I need? I am shooting a 7mm Rem Mag and have some fired brass I bought when I first started loading but am interested in getting a little more into long range stuff and desire better accuracy. So I am going to buy some new brass and am wondering what everybody likes to have to start out with. I was thinking 100????

Of the brass I have, it has all been full length sized at this point. Am I able to mix it in with the new brass as long as it is the same head stamp? I have read a lot of stuff from some searches on here and it seems like all the replies I find refer to mixing fire-formed with new brass. I am wondering if it is possible to mix in non-fire-formed previously fired full length sized brass with new brass that I have also full length sized??? Kind of a confusion question.

At first thought, I would guess that the previously fired cases might throw different pressures due to the fact that they have been worked a little?????

My applications do not involve target shooting, hunting only, and would like to be able to attain good accuracy out to around 7-800yds. Thanks for the help.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Just out of curiousity, how much brass do you think I need? I am shooting a 7mm Rem Mag and have some fired brass I bought when I first started loading but am interested in getting a little more into long range stuff and desire better accuracy. So I am going to buy some new brass and am wondering what everybody likes to have to start out with. I was thinking 100????

Of the brass I have, it has all been full length sized at this point. Am I able to mix it in with the new brass as long as it is the same head stamp? I have read a lot of stuff from some searches on here and it seems like all the replies I find refer to mixing fire-formed with new brass. I am wondering if it is possible to mix in non-fire-formed previously fired full length sized brass with new brass that I have also full length sized??? Kind of a confusion question.

At first thought, I would guess that the previously fired cases might throw different pressures due to the fact that they have been worked a little?????

My applications do not involve target shooting, hunting only, and would like to be able to attain good accuracy out to around 7-800yds. Thanks for the help.

I like to have at least 200 cases on hand for any of my rifles. Don't mix your brass, as when you start to get a lot of failures you will want to cull a bunch of the brass, and that's not possible if it's mixed. I don't worry as much about pistol brass, but for rifle I separate the brass and when it starts cracking or separating it goes in the bad brass can(the whole box), crimped shut so I can't accidentally use it if the kids get to it.
I don't segregate range pick-ups other than for headstamp, and I've got a lot of Fed headstamp pickups. I shoot em a few times and they become hunting brass I don't worry about loosing.

 

[D.ID]

Lefty is spot on. Definitely keep em separate. I figure expected barrel life divided by five equals needed brass. I usually buy 300 for a new gun so I can keep 100 reserve and rotate the other 200. I have a tendency to shoot allot and prefer to have large batches to rotate.

 

[mrb1982]

Cool, that's some really good info. So no tell me this, for instance I have 200rd of brass. Lets say, just for theoretical puroses, that it takes 100rds to get my load worked the way I want/need it. Do you just continue to shoot the other 100 until they are gone, then recheck your load before you load them all again?

Do you full length size the second time around also to keep the load consistant? Or do you just neck size and recheck you velocities and POI's?

I am just wanting to know how you reloading vetern's do it. To this point, for the minimal range I have been expecting accuracy for, I can get away with some things. I want to know how the long range guys that have been doing it for a while cycle their brass and loads through. I will be hunting only, no competitive target shooting or anything. Just practice for hunting. Thanks for your help

 

[D.ID]

I use off the shelf dies (not custom) so I only full length size for my semi auto. I use the first round to fire form and find a node then from there I neck size only and adjust as need be to stay in the node. Once you find an exceptable node: Shoot a small batch of say ten until the primer pockets get loose so you have an idea what to expect for brass life with a given load. Don't shoot 200 rounds and then find out half your primer pockets are loose and you have great data for a load too hot to keep using. Bean there done that.

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

I don't have a neck sizing die in the house here. I full length size everything. I do size the belted mags to match the shoulder; but that's not hard, just smoke a shoulder with a match when you are first setting the die, and keep turning the die down until you have some contact on the shoulder.
I hunt in sub-zero temps. some years, so I try ammo in both cold and hot weather to make sure it works before loading any quantity and fl size, using mag. primers for extra insurance in cold weather.

 

[mrb1982]

D. ID and Lefty,

Thanks for all your help. This website has been awesome for learning about some of this stuff and it's been great. I shoot a sendero and I shoot 1 MOA with what I got right now, but I know it can do better than that so I am working on some stuff to really fine tune stuff so I can start shooting more long range consistently. Thanks for your help.

One last thing, when you go from a full length sized brass to a fire-formed, neck sized, brass, do you your velocities of the load stay consistent or do you see some significant differences between the full length sized brass and the fireformed?

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

D. ID and Lefty,

Thanks for all your help. This website has been awesome for learning about some of this stuff and it's been great. I shoot a sendero and I shoot 1 MOA with what I got right now, but I know it can do better than that so I am working on some stuff to really fine tune stuff so I can start shooting more long range consistently. Thanks for your help.

One last thing, when you go from a full length sized brass to a fire-formed, neck sized, brass, do you your velocities of the load stay consistent or do you see some significant differences between the full length sized brass and the fireformed?

As far as velocity differences between fl brass and neck sized- never tried it, but I doubt it would matter. I suppose I could cheat and do up some 7stw brass in my 7rum die(a de-facto way to cheat and get a neck sizing die out of a fl die) and see. It's only a few fps between new and fl, so it shouldn't matter. The brass has got to fill the chamber when the pressure is on anyway, so where the brass starts is not of great importance. You do work your brass a bit more with fl sizing, but I really don't try to stretch the shot count on my brass anyway so I don't care.

 

[mrb1982]

As far as velocity differences between fl brass and neck sized- never tried it, but I doubt it would matter. I suppose I could cheat and do up some 7stw brass in my 7rum die(a de-facto way to cheat and get a neck sizing die out of a fl die) and see. It's only a few fps between new and fl, so it shouldn't matter. The brass has got to fill the chamber when the pressure is on anyway, so where the brass starts is not of great importance. You do work your brass a bit more with fl sizing, but I really don't try to stretch the shot count on my brass anyway so I don't care.

Fair enough, that was kinda one of the real pressing last questions I had about the whole deal. Thanks for you guys help. All the questions I really had to sort out are pretty much answered. I am not really that concerned about brass life either I guess. As long as I get 2, or maybe 3 loads out of a set of brass, that would be fine. I have a buddy tell me that with magnum brass, I will probably get about 4 loads out of a set of brass, depending on the brass of course.........

I take that back, one more question. hahahaha So I am going to switch to some 168gr Bergers and test out some H1000 with them. When I work up my test loads for seating depth testing, what kind of charge are you putting in your casings? Do I start out with the minimum charge since I am trying to work on seating depth specifically at that moment?

 

[Lefty7mmstw]

Sorry, I don't use h1000 in the 7rem. I use 7828 and rl22. A bit of I 4064 thrown in too.

67 gr 7828 with a 150 nos

70 gr rl22 with a 140 sierra

56 gr I 4064 with a 140 sierra

all mag primer

 

[D.ID]

In regards to velocity change going from full length to fire formed: It depends on your chamber. In my 338 edge less than 10fps difference but in my wsm velocity drops about 30fps in formed brass, so I load a little more powder in formed brass to get the same speed and accuracy. The wsm shoots almost the same with full length sizing as it does with fire formed brass when pushed to the same speed. The edge is so much more accurate than I am, that I can't say if it matters= the thing just shoots.

 

[Joe King]

Fair enough, that was kinda one of the real pressing last questions I had about the whole deal. Thanks for you guys help. All the questions I really had to sort out are pretty much answered. I am not really that concerned about brass life either I guess. As long as I get 2, or maybe 3 loads out of a set of brass, that would be fine. I have a buddy tell me that with magnum brass, I will probably get about 4 loads out of a set of brass, depending on the brass of course.........

I take that back, one more question. hahahaha So I am going to switch to some 168gr Bergers and test out some H1000 with them. When I work up my test loads for seating depth testing, what kind of charge are you putting in your casings? Do I start out with the minimum charge since I am trying to work on seating depth specifically at that moment?

This is how I work a new load, first just pick an arbitrary seating depth that's in the neighborhood of COAL
I'll load up 5 charges increasing in 1/2 gr increments, with the heaviest charge being 1gr above book max. when I go test this batch of test loads with a clean barrel, I will fire the 1st of each charge at some arbitrary target and inspect each case for pressure signs, if I see a hint pressure with load #4 and definitely see pressure with load #5 then I will not fire the other 4 fro Load #5 and bull em down at home. The remaining 4 of each charge will be fired round robing with a target for each load (search OCW load development) OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

next step will be to try a number of different primers, I like to used 5 different primers with 5 rnds each at least one primer will show you significantly tighter grouping than the rest, fired round robin style again

Next is time to start looking for that seating depth your rifle likes, you can go from 0.00" off the lands to to 0.250 if you like for example, and just follow the crumb trail refining your seating depth until you get it nailed down.

If you do it right you'll end up with a load that is both accurate and forgiving for temp changes. Just remember to shoot everything round robin, I like to wait 5-10min between shots to somewhat simulate a 1st round cold bore shot each time.

 

[mrb1982]

This is how I work a new load, first just pick an arbitrary seating depth that's in the neighborhood of COAL
I'll load up 5 charges increasing in 1/2 gr increments, with the heaviest charge being 1gr above book max. when I go test this batch of test loads with a clean barrel, I will fire the 1st of each charge at some arbitrary target and inspect each case for pressure signs, if I see a hint pressure with load #4 and definitely see pressure with load #5 then I will not fire the other 4 fro Load #5 and bull em down at home. The remaining 4 of each charge will be fired round robing with a target for each load (search OCW load development) OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

next step will be to try a number of different primers, I like to used 5 different primers with 5 rnds each at least one primer will show you significantly tighter grouping than the rest, fired round robin style again

Next is time to start looking for that seating depth your rifle likes, you can go from 0.00" off the lands to to 0.250 if you like for example, and just follow the crumb trail refining your seating depth until you get it nailed down.

If you do it right you'll end up with a load that is both accurate and forgiving for temp changes. Just remember to shoot everything round robin, I like to wait 5-10min between shots to somewhat simulate a 1st round cold bore shot each time.

Good advice. The only real question I would have is for instance I am gonna load some 168 bergers and they are known to be very picky about seating depth. I was thinking about doing things almost the opposite. Find the optimal seating depth, then find the charge that shoots the optimal seating depth the best. Probably the same conclusion with a slightly different technique.

 

[D.ID]

I actually determine seating depth as early in load development as possible for two reasons A: as you pointed out VLD bullets are sensitive as are several other bullets. B: perhaps most importantly: the bullets relationship to lands and the overall length of your rounds with a given bullet determines the internal capacity of the cartridge, which effects pressure which then effects velocity. Develop a hot but safe load at book length and then move your bullet out while maintaining a significant jump to lands and velocity will drop dew to decreased pressure. Move the bullet right up to or into the lands and it will spike. Seating depth has made such a dramatic improvement over any other factor in my reloading. Truth be told I do not care what my velocity is as long as it is consistent. I also do not care if I am close to max pressure (getting all she's got), only that it is safe in any conditions I may shoot in and again consistent. Seating depth can and has made a load of (X) grains of (y) powder transform the load from horrible to tack driver and vise a versa. I would and do: Pick a length relative to your rifling and bullet selection and then do the rounds. Only changing it if satisfactory results prove unachievable. My .02