Headspace with full length resizing

[AZShooter]

Bgilli2,

I agree with another poster that your once fired mixed with multiple times fired brass is most likely your problem.

I would imagine you will also have different lengths to the brass AND neck tension should be different too. If you want to get the most from your brass segregate by times fired, trim all at the same time. Consistency is a big part of handloading for accuracy.

For now you will be over sizing the soft brass to get the multiple fired brass sized enough to get them to fit properly. This will work the soft brass causing more brass to flow to the necks. That will require trimming at a faster rate. Eventually the oversized brass could become thin in the web/body junction causing a head separation!

You have created a mess. Best to get more orderly with your brass to save frustration and issues.

 

[bgilli2]

Thanks guys.... I believe you are correct. I am going to throw this batch away and start over with a new lot and do this right... Thanks again.

 

[boomtube]

"Oh, I wasn't criticizing at all. Not at all. I was just putting out there my experiences."

And I'm not offended, just suggesting that if you gonna 'quote' someone by name maybe it would be good to do it accurately... just a thought.

 

[Trental]

"Oh, I wasn't criticizing at all. Not at all. I was just putting out there my experiences."

And I'm not offended, just suggesting that if you gonna 'quote' someone by name maybe it would be good to do it accurately... just a thought.

My apologies... I guess. I don't know what mean. Don't really care either.

 

[boomtube]

" I don't know what mean (sic). Don't really care either."

Okay, I'll make this as simple as I can. You 'quoted' me, by name, as saying I can't get my cases sized consistantly but I never said anything even close to that. (And I basically explained exactly what you then expertly repeated what makes it somewhat difficult to accomplish.)

If you care or not isn't at issue, but if you want to establish yourself as a bonifide web reloading guru you will need to at least get your quotes straight or screw up in ways that aren't blatantly obvious to the casual reader.

Good luck!

 

[Trental]

They will never be 'exactly' the same for more than a few cases. .

YOU SAID IT, NOT ME. Also, I never QUOTED you, I referenced back to a post you had made. I did not quote your words, I referred to a post you had already put out there for the forum to see. Everything you had said was still there. I didn't mislead, nor did I try to mar your status as an "interned reloading guru". Also, I never said that you CAN"T do anything. Right there, you just misquoted me. You are a hypocrite.

When I even mentioned your name I did it in a way that would smooth the waters because I (that's ME) was about to offer some experience that contradicted the post you had made. I was actually trying to avoid some retarded internet argument. I guess I failed at that.

Just so that we are clear here, I am in no way attempting to become an "internet reloading guru". If that is your goal, good luck.

Nice job ruining an otherwise great thread.

 

[shooshtymcshooshterson]

If you anneal the brass it will basically equalize them all.

I weighed my brass, culled the odd ones, only keeping a certain spread, I think 5gr from lightest to heaviest. I Anneal my brass every 2-3 firings. Minimal resizing, I just kiss the shoulder enough to chamber reliably. This keeps trimming to a minimum, which also keeps the weights/volumes consistent. However
I run the brass through the trimmer every loading.

What I get from this is consistent case volume, minimal trimming which would lighten the cases and change the volumes, consistent headspacing thanks to the softened shoulders and consistent hold on the bullets thanks to softened necks.
I could turn my necks for even consistency but I'm ok where I'm at for now.

Ps, I'm about 10-13hot loads through most of my .300 win mag brass and I hardly ever have to retire one. I bought a couple hundred brand new cases and haven't even opened the bags, been sitting on the shelf for 2 years. Just using up all my handle down brass from my father.

 

[boomtube]

Oh, I wasn't criticizing at all. Not at all. I was just putting out there my experiences.

And, strickly speaking you're right, you didn't quite quote me. But you did 'reference' something I didn't say and that's not good form, even on the net.

 

[sp6x6]

Somebody asked for some new ideas. Post #7 has reference to this months technical articles. "WHAT HAPPENS TO THE CASE" The article points out several things that can change your sized case length. I suggest you reread, it is very tech. but also very good article and supported by data. The primer seating is a way as mentioned to , clean up a few thousands. It is being careful at all stages to get more consistent. How tight die is in press, did it lossen. Are you full length to die or partial as some do. that can lead to more problems as article states. As Boomtube said, they come out different. The more you measure and check and double check, the more you find that it varies. It varies from brand to brand of brass.Can drive you nuts. The less you change brass size from chamber to sizing the less issues you have.

 

[Trental]

Oh, I wasn't criticizing at all. Not at all. I was just putting out there my experiences.

And, strickly speaking you're right, you didn't quite quote me. But you did 'reference' something I didn't say and that's not good form, even on the net.

Okay. I'll just agree to disagree. I never said anything to the contrary of what you said. If you feel wronged I apologize.

 

[Mikecr]

sp6x6, being a magazine article it stood unqualified, and much of it fails tests.
Just sayin..

 

[MNbogboy]

boomtube wrote: "They will never be 'exactly' the same for more than a few cases. Nor does it really matter with a factory rifle so long as the longest resized shoulder length doesn't exceed the longest fired length; that will insure the cartridges will all chamber smoothly and that's about as good as it gets. Only dead soft, totally over heated during annealing, cases will be totally malleable during firing and resizing.

The reason you see shoulder length (and diameter) variation is that the hardness/springback of cases does vary. It varies a little in the same new box and that hardness/springback increases each time you cycle them. The hardness variation accounts for about half of the springing variation you're getting, the other half comes from your inconsistent lubing and final pressure and varying rhythm when operating the press. "


Trental wrote: "I know Boomtube mentions that his brass never comes out the same but I don't find that to be the case with my resizing. Generally my brass comes out extremely consistent in headspace."


i wrote: If you notice the ticks around the word exactly ('exactly') most people would or should understand that means they will be very close but not exactly! No one has measuring equipment to measure 'all' the differences and they never will. No two cases will ever be exactly the same just as I believe boomtube is inferring. My brass never comes out the 'same' either, (but still very consistent) but I don't have equipment sophisticated enough to measure the minute differences and I would guess that no one on this forum does either.
They may be close (like snowflakes) but never exactly the same.

Boomtube never mentioned that his brass never comes out the same.

Personally, I have been reading his posts on this forum for several years now and I really respect his knowledge.
In addition I totally agree with everything boomtube has said on this post and I wish that others would swallow their pride once in a while and admit they might be wrong. These forums can be entertaining at times but sometimes the squabbles make us lose point of the OPs questions or advice.

A lot of good info and theory on this post though. Keep it coming.

My .02,
Randy

 

[Trental]

This has gotten completely blown out out of proportion and misunderstood. I wasn't Insinuating anything about Boomtube or his knowledge. This is stupid how this has even become a discussion. He made a post and I referred to it. I didn't change what he said nor did I state anything negative about his methods, knowledge or skill. His results seem different than mine so in an effort to AVOID CONFLICT I thought I would try to smooth the water. Also I was trying not to confuse the original poster because my experiences are different than Boomtube's. My brass does come out the same, accurate to 0.001" measured with standard quality calipers. Boomtube said they "never" come out the same. My results are different. I'm not disagreeing with Boomtube, I'm not telling him he is wrong. I am merely stating MY EXPERIENCES. This is the dumbest argument ever. The entire thing was invented.

If I have offended Boomtube I have already apologized. I do not understand why he felt slighted. All I can offer is that he misunderstood my post.

I'm done.

 

[Bart B]

I once fired and reloaded the same .308 Win. case 47 times with max loads. Muzzle velocity spread was 26 fps. No problems with the case except I had to trim it back to 2.000" every 8 shots as it shortened a few thosandths after firing then grew in length a thousandths or so more after full length sizing it; average length growth was about .0013" per firing and resizing. Measured case headspace with an RCBS Precision Mic after each full length resizing and the spread was about 2 thousandths; good enough for 1/2 MOA at 600.

Did some tests years ago with sizing lubes. Some thick ones caused a large spread in sized case headspace on rimless bottleneck cases. Others were better. I also tried different application methods. More lube usually ended up setting the case shoulder back too far, less may not let it set back enough.

But this all happened when the did didn't quite touch the shell holder when the ram was at the top of its stroke. It's press springing that causes the problem and how much is determined by how much "lubricity" the case lube has.

Made my own case lube with a 50-50 mix of STP engine oil treatment and Hoppe's No. 9 bore cleaner. Got the most uniform full length sized headspace with it.

Now there are shell holders available in 2/1000ths height increments. I suggest getting one of them that lets the shell holder abutt agains the die bottom when full length sizing. This typically results in much smaller spreads in sized case headspace.