Good load gone bad?

Discussion in 'Muzzleloader Hunting' started by meatyrem, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    I have a ML question for anybody out there with some experience. I have a TC prohunter .50 cal, that I found with Blachorn 209shoots exceptionally well. My load-120gr vol with a 200gr TC shockwave and a winshester primer. In the fall of 2009 I started shooting it and found with the above load to produce .55 inch groups center to center @ 100yds. It shot the same way earlier this season too, but i took it out just before the ML ( just to check to see if it is still zeroed after the firearm season ) season here in Michigan to the range when it was about in the mid twenties ( temp ) and it seemed my very consistant half inch groups fell open to approx. two inch groups............Is it the temperature change?...........could it have been the gusting wind? This is still at a 100 yds. Wind was about 15 to 25 mph. The range where i was at has to 10ft walls of dirt on both sides of the range so there is not the effect of a full wind....but some wind. Like I said it shot the same earlier this fall but all of a sudden started shooting a little wacky. I just dont understand if my load didnt change and neither did anything else...........What could be the case? Also I thought maybe loading pressure consistancy could be an issue too. Thanks to anyone who can help.----------Meatyrem
     
  2. shorty

    shorty Well-Known Member

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    Had the same problem last year on my ML. Found my scope bases a little loose! A little degreasing and a little Loctite fixed mine. Also pitched out the previous years triple 7, I buy new every year now. Figured it was cheaper than scotch if I had a misfire while aiming at a 180 class Whitetail.
     

  3. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply shorty. Yep, I checked the rings and bases and they were solid. Used locktite also when it was mounted. Im gonna call TC arms tech and ask if they changed their sabots, cuz the new ones are a couple shades lighter (dark blue to light blue) and also I just noticed they load much easier too, and Im thinking they may be an issue. My powder was kept dry and sealed at all times until I measure up loads.
     
  4. flyin lizard

    flyin lizard Well-Known Member

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    The wind could be an issue if gusting 15 to 25, did the group string out sideways?
     
  5. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    Flyin lizard- I did think that was a big issue. But I also thought it shouldn't affect impact as much as it did, I may be wrong, but I think two inches would be stretching it. The range where I go to has eight to ten ft tall dirt burms ( walls ) on both sides the whole length of the range although it blocked most of the wind it didn't block it all and it also made it like swirl around too. I could tell cuz the snow was going every direction. To answer your question, yes they hit to the sides left and right and also up and down too. But I'm still on the conclusion about the sabots loading without much effort compared to the old ones like I had. It seems as if they are the same as the superglides are. The original sabots I used were very snug.
     
  6. i call it maize

    i call it maize New Member

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    If the sabot is loading differently, then I would certainly be suspicious. Go back out on a calm day and shoot her one more time. I have found that sabot differences affect groups more than powder charge changes.
     
  7. FrontierGander

    FrontierGander Well-Known Member

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    Not cleaning the breech plugs flash channel will certainly affect the group size. gun)
    [​IMG]

    Your TC will use an 1/8" drill bit. W209 primer carbon is very hard crust, almost feels like broken glass when you are cutting it out so if it feels like the bit is to large, its not. Just the carbon.
     
  8. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    I have recently switched to Barnes tmz and has been much better. But I get two just about in the same hole and sometimes I do then the third one will open it up to 1 1/2" I will always have one flyer whether its the first or the last bu two will always touch. My next step is to try crush ribs. My best load is: 115gr (weighed) 250gr tmz win 209 and that gets me about 1 1/2" group. More testing when i get to try the crush rib as thats what i hear really helps out. It was hard to chrono this too as I don't know if it was measuring the sabot or the bullet or both. Anyone know the best distance for chrono placement?
     
  9. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    Putting two in the same hole then having one shoot 1.5" isn't a flyer. Sorry but its the shooter or a slight load/pressure difference. If your TMZ's are shooting that good and loading good, switching to crushed ribs .... can... open your groups up significantly. I did some testing, mostly force testing and while doing so, figured what the heck. I had a box of crushed ribs (for the TMZ) and decided to shoot some. It opened up the group to over 4" and my rifle is capable of 1/4" groups with the supplied sabots. If your rifle is shooting that good, work on your form and breathing. 1 1/2" is not a flyer..... Move the chrono further away and...... PUT SOMETHING OVER THE READ OUT. Sabots have been known to hit and destroy them. BLOCK THE READ OUT with something that will hold up to the sabot striking it. Don't hit the guides either.

    To the OP.............. Frontier Gander gave you SOUND advice and if you haven't been cleaning the carbon from your flame channel, it will certainly affect your groups. If your shooting for accurate groups, twist the drill in the flash channel after about every 6th shot fired, then shoot at least one primer by itself. Although some rifles will shoot a max load of BH209, many more rifles shoot between 100grs and 110grs much better. Encores and Pro Hunters seem to like 110grs volume very well.
     
  10. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    When I am at the range and sighting in load testing or similar, I sand bag the front and rear to get rock solid when shooting. My encore doesn't give me flinch nor does my 300rum so I know I'm not flinching. The thing that concerns me is tmz's with the supplied sabots take A LOT of force to load. I'm not a small guy I'm big (300lbs) and I'm not flabby and it takes quite a bit of force to load it. I have a bullet starter and I have to put much of my weight to start it and when I use my ramrod I have to be careful as to not brake the supplied encore ramrod because I have to use about half of my weight to load it. It is the hardest by far to load over everything else I have ever had. My palm gets sore after a couple loads too. So maybe something different may help. I can't really regulate seating pressure cuz it's very difficult to control.
     
  11. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    Use the T-EZ. Most rifles start loading easier the more they're shot. I just had a person over that purchased a new Traditions Vortek and needed help. I can assure you, that was the tightest barrel that I've ran across in a long time. The T-EZ loaded hard and the crushed ribs loaded hard. So hard that I brought out the precision tooling to verify the forces required to just push it down the barrel. They were reaching 88 to 95#, which is way to much force.

    He put almost 100 rounds through it and it started loading very well. After the season is over here in MI, he's going to JB the barrel. I fully expect he'll have no further trouble loading.

    If your rifle is loading that hard, I'd try the T-EZ which many with tight bores have found to load and perform perfect. I'd also run some JB through that barrel many times.

    Hunter Bullet Starter & Ramrod Extension-Information

    Best bullet starter I've used or inlines. Screw your Barnes bullet starter jag into the end and start the bullet. Then, turn the handle over and place it over the ramrod. No problems with sore palms.......
     
  12. meatyrem

    meatyrem Well-Known Member

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    Ya maybe now that I think about it the t-ez may be better and still a tight fit too judging how tight the tmz's are. I have to t-shaped ramrod or the power ramrod that comes with the encore pro hunters so I can't use the other end. I say I'd have to be way above those figures that you measured. All I know is I'm squishing the recoils pad flat when I load. So since they are that tight it may be a good idea like you suggested to use t-ez.
     
  13. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    First thing I did when I took my Pro Hunter out of the box, was to take the supplied ramrod (power rod) out and put it someplace where the wife will find it and use it to hold up a lawn ornament. I am 100% serious!!!!

    Although I appreciate the idea behind it, it also means that I have to pull the rod, screw on a Barnes bullet starter to load for a quick second shot, or at another deer, unscrew the loading jag, put that in my pocket and then, I can replace the ramrod. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

    Instead I use solid aluminum rods that are to long. I attach the loading jag, measure for length, then cut the excess rod off. A few seconds on the grinder and it matches perfectly the end of the original and holds in the rifle. I guess it may be ok for a solid, flat nose or conical but, its worthless as is for a polymer tipped bullet.
     
  14. woodnut

    woodnut Well-Known Member

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    Meatyrem,
    Just a WAG; but have you miked the bore? I am not nearly the sharpest tack in this forum, but I have read there are differing bore sizes. From what you've said about the energy it takes to run a bullet home( I flatten out the recoil pad); it sorta sounds like maybe there's a serious size problem between the bore and what sabots and bullets you're using. Odd though, that your original groups were so good if that were the case. Still, I'd want to know the bore size. Cerosafe can tell you easily what it is. Then you can better match up the sabots and bullets.
    As for the winds; At 15 to 25 mph, you bet they can throw bullets! Even heavy ones. Since you said the winds were swirling, it could account for the outs up/down and sideways. I like to use wind flags as they will really help doping the winds while group shooting. Not one, but several. And definitely, clean out the plug! Oh, and primers can make a difference in groups and good ignitions. Have you changed them?