The Preacher
Member
Excellent article, it really helped me put a finger on some things I need to improve to help get me past the "brick wall" I've run up against.
Fitting The Long Range Rifle By Shawn Carlock
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dogdinger
Well-Known Member
Great article shawn. I have preached this to trapshooters for yrs. Having your gun fit you is the #1 best way to aquire repeatability. In the trapshooting world where you are shooting a 200 target match, you cant afford to NOT have repeatability. With that said, i never was a good stock fitter for anyone but myself. I could make my gun work for me, but could not tell you how to make your gun fit. most trapguns these days have adjustable combs, and LOP adjustments, but i liked using the old redneck method of body putty to build up a stock. This way you are not as tempted to get your allen wrenches out and re-adjust after every bad perfomance. In this vane , i am building a red-neck A-5 stock for my new gun build. I simply took the standard savage stock and added body putty to it to make the grip what i wanted and to get the cheek peice where i needed it, and widened the fore-end. I now am going to take your advice and level the cheek to be parallel to the axis of the scope. After i am all done fitting it i will give it a good paint job and she will be done. AJ
Very interesting article 
First, I am not a good rifle shot having spent most of my time field shooting with shotguns so most bad groups are most likely me!
A year or so ago I thought that I hit upon a good load with 150 grain NAB's at a bit over 3K fps.
@ 100 yards I often got this type of target but assumed a mechanical problem.
This first target was left/right/left right.
This 5 shot group below is actually a 4 +1 group.
The holes are left/left/right top/left
I then switched to a different load on a different target.
Feeling cocky, I decided that the top right shot was a flier, so I decided to put a bullet dead into the bull so aimed at the lower black dot figuring it would hit dead center....I left in disgust
The rifle is built on a Savage 110 action with a Tupperware stock without a barrel nut ( Remington style barrel )
The barrel and angled scope base required high scope rings so cheek weld is certainly inconsistent ( I had assumed that using a scope it wouldn't matter ).
To make matters worse, this is a muzzleloader so after firing I need to stand, swab the bore reload, and then reset the rifle on the bags.
If cheek weld could cause this type of groupings, then I certainly will add an adjustable cheek piece to this stock.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
edge.
First, I am not a good rifle shot having spent most of my time field shooting with shotguns so most bad groups are most likely me!
A year or so ago I thought that I hit upon a good load with 150 grain NAB's at a bit over 3K fps.
@ 100 yards I often got this type of target but assumed a mechanical problem.
This first target was left/right/left right.
This 5 shot group below is actually a 4 +1 group.
The holes are left/left/right top/left
I then switched to a different load on a different target.
Feeling cocky, I decided that the top right shot was a flier, so I decided to put a bullet dead into the bull so aimed at the lower black dot figuring it would hit dead center....I left in disgust
The rifle is built on a Savage 110 action with a Tupperware stock without a barrel nut ( Remington style barrel )
The barrel and angled scope base required high scope rings so cheek weld is certainly inconsistent ( I had assumed that using a scope it wouldn't matter ).
To make matters worse, this is a muzzleloader so after firing I need to stand, swab the bore reload, and then reset the rifle on the bags.
If cheek weld could cause this type of groupings, then I certainly will add an adjustable cheek piece to this stock.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
edge.
Last edited:
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
I'd love to tell you if you put a cheekpiece on it will cure you issues, however it is hard to tell just looking at some groups. It does have the look of a mechinical problem of some kind. If there is a fit issue typically it will manifest itself ramdomly over a given area. There is an issue effecting you in a somewaht consistant manner, this to me smells of a something loose/shifting. Possible causes: stock to barrel fit/ clearance, internal scope issues, some kinds of base to action fits, ring to base fits. The first thing I would try is to put a different scope on it to eliminate the posibility of internal scope issues and go from there.
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A big DITTO!
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
We manufacture those cheekpieces, they take a couple of drill bits a cordless drill and 5 minutes to put on.
Excellent article, with excellent points! Shooting from different positions/conditions is so important. However, one thing to minimize this "positional change is to buying scopes with parallax adjustment and use them on the range so it is second nature in the field. One simple extra step (side focus) helps to minimize "reticulitis" (not the medical definition) from shooting in different positions. A scope adjusted to minimize parallax at the right distance will make a big difference!
Go to the range when it is windy/raining/snowing instead of shooting some fictional character from home on x-box! I thought I had a pretty good grouping rifle until I went on a really windy day. I had a 4 inch vertical spread at 600 yards, and a 4 foot horizontal spread. Lots more work needed!
Good job!
Go to the range when it is windy/raining/snowing instead of shooting some fictional character from home on x-box! I thought I had a pretty good grouping rifle until I went on a really windy day. I had a 4 inch vertical spread at 600 yards, and a 4 foot horizontal spread. Lots more work needed!
Good job!
I recently started shooting with big game ammo, found very good results with the 300WSM rifle and scope that I picked. It had been more than 25 years since I was shooting 22LR and air rifles, hunting rabbits.
I went shooting this weekend with my son after reading your article, and are very interested in knowing how to add a cheek piece to my Tikka T3 Lite (Synthetic, blued), yes... I know, it was not the best way to start, was planning on getting two rifles, this and a 243, but had to modify the budget, and started with the 300.
Please let me know what is the best way to add a cheek piece to this rifle.
Regards,
Sam
I went shooting this weekend with my son after reading your article, and are very interested in knowing how to add a cheek piece to my Tikka T3 Lite (Synthetic, blued), yes... I know, it was not the best way to start, was planning on getting two rifles, this and a 243, but had to modify the budget, and started with the 300.
Please let me know what is the best way to add a cheek piece to this rifle.
Regards,
Sam
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
I am not sure, mine won't work on that style of stock. While not a prefect solution, one of the tactical strap over designs would be better than going without.
jmden
Well-Known Member
Hi Shawn,
This article came at an opportune time for me. I've ordered a Manner's T2 stock (got your DE cheekpiece ordered for it already--thanks!) and am trying to determine the LOP I need. My current set up is the Rem 700 laminate stock with a Limbsaver pad. I had to cut off the steel buttplate that the stock came with and then attached this pad, so between the 1/8" saw curf and the steel plate, I probably lost about 3/16". So, I made a spacer out of 1/4" ABS and slapped it on there. I get a measured LOP on that rifle of between 13 1/2" and 13 3/4"--just over 13 1/2" if I measure to the middle of the pad. Here's a shot of my home modified stock before I put the 1/4" spacer on. (Sounds like I might want to adjust the cheekpiece to be parallel with the scope on the 20 MOA rail.)
So, in reading your article I see the suggestion about having your arm at about 90 deg. I ask my wife to measure this while I'm in shooting position. She's a physical therapist and measuring joint angles is something they do quite a bit. She's getting well under 90 deg for the angle between upper arm and forearm (probably 70 deg--she's going to bring her special measuring tools from work and try it again) and I kinda feel cramped in the shooting position. I'm a pretty average size at 5' 11" tall. I took these measurements with several layers of clothing on to simulate hunting conditions somewhat.
My trigger finger is also easily reaching to the first joint on the trigger when I 'm gripping the stock comfortably. In fact, that's kinda been what I've been indexing off to try to have some repeatability there. I don't think I have large hands, but it feels awkward to try to put the middle of my pad consistently on the trigger.
Are these issues rooted in shooting from a prone position with a stock that's not really designed for that? Will the T2, which I haven't had a chance to hold, provide different and better 'geometry' on it's own? And, the big question, what LOP do I tell Tom to ship this at? I'm not sure that even a 15" LOP would change my arm angle much.
Thanks for the help Shawn and fellas,
Jon
This article came at an opportune time for me. I've ordered a Manner's T2 stock (got your DE cheekpiece ordered for it already--thanks!) and am trying to determine the LOP I need. My current set up is the Rem 700 laminate stock with a Limbsaver pad. I had to cut off the steel buttplate that the stock came with and then attached this pad, so between the 1/8" saw curf and the steel plate, I probably lost about 3/16". So, I made a spacer out of 1/4" ABS and slapped it on there. I get a measured LOP on that rifle of between 13 1/2" and 13 3/4"--just over 13 1/2" if I measure to the middle of the pad. Here's a shot of my home modified stock before I put the 1/4" spacer on. (Sounds like I might want to adjust the cheekpiece to be parallel with the scope on the 20 MOA rail.)
So, in reading your article I see the suggestion about having your arm at about 90 deg. I ask my wife to measure this while I'm in shooting position. She's a physical therapist and measuring joint angles is something they do quite a bit. She's getting well under 90 deg for the angle between upper arm and forearm (probably 70 deg--she's going to bring her special measuring tools from work and try it again) and I kinda feel cramped in the shooting position. I'm a pretty average size at 5' 11" tall. I took these measurements with several layers of clothing on to simulate hunting conditions somewhat.
My trigger finger is also easily reaching to the first joint on the trigger when I 'm gripping the stock comfortably. In fact, that's kinda been what I've been indexing off to try to have some repeatability there. I don't think I have large hands, but it feels awkward to try to put the middle of my pad consistently on the trigger.
Are these issues rooted in shooting from a prone position with a stock that's not really designed for that? Will the T2, which I haven't had a chance to hold, provide different and better 'geometry' on it's own? And, the big question, what LOP do I tell Tom to ship this at? I'm not sure that even a 15" LOP would change my arm angle much.
Thanks for the help Shawn and fellas,
Jon
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
You will be suprised how much difference 1" will make. Now the are angle is not the end all be all of rifle fitting. There are always some comprimises to be made to get the "best "fit. If your arms are a little long in proportion to your shoulder, neck, cheek relationship then you will not reach the 90 degree angle very easy. It is better to give up some angle than to comprmise eye relief and cheek fit. If for instance you fit the rifle based on the arm angle only you could be way too far back on the rifle with you face. I have always believed that you should fit your rifle from the eye backward, that is to place you face on the cheekpiece where it is at a comfortable location, fit the LOP so that the stock slides in the shoulder pocket, now the rifle should be mounted and the cheek should find a repeatable spot on the cheekrest, if the arm is 90 great if no so be it, if it is off alot from 90 there are problem some shooting positions or body mechanics issues to be addressed. When this is done mount the scope for proper eyerelief, and adjust the cheekpiece for correct height. This is how I usually aproach it. Hope this helps.
